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Subject: Legendary DC: Gotham Nights - Finished!!!! rss

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Shane Fletcher
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Re: Legendary DC: Gotham Nights
It is very remiss of me not to have credited Steve Bird with the production of the Card Back I used. There are quite a few posts that have linked to it, because I think it is pretty much the standard card used when printing.

So, thanks Steve. Your work is very much appreciated.

https://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/113120/hi-rez-scan-legend...
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Shane Fletcher
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Re: Legendary DC: Gotham Nights
alextuesday wrote:
I love the samples you posted and the allowance on the borders of the cards. Do you have the card back available to upload or the file from Make Playing Cards available? I've printed some other cards but never could get the Marvel / Upper Deck logos in the right place. Thanks for all the work you've done.
Oh, and I'm not sure how to link to the project from the Printers, and even if I could I have updated the cards since printing them. Each batch has cards with mistakes, that have now been corrected. I have updated all the images that are linked to in these posts, so downloading them will give the latest versions.

But I just noticed that right click and saving the file does not save it with my original name, but a string of numbers and characters supplied by BoardGeek. Will make a post in the next day or two with the card links to make it easier for people who want to print them. Will group them together in decks as per my post at https://boardgamegeek.com/article/23893321#23893321

Thanks again for the comments. I have done no testing at all (that's what Christmas family time is for :-) so anyone that uses the cards and this format and wants to leave some feed back is more than welcome to. It will all be taken on board.
 
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Shane Fletcher
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Re: Legendary DC: Gotham Nights
Okay, I suggest you make folders called Deck 1&2, Deck 3, etc and then right click on the links below, select Save As, and save the files into the folders that you need.

I printed Linen Cards, and they're a bit heavier than the regular cards, so I'm going to be going with the regular smooth cards for next time.

Still need to make some Bystander cards, and then I'll make a post of the standard decks.

Decks 1 & 2
20 Common 1. Hero Cards
Let's Split Up (2 copies)
Psycho Sword Chick (2 copies)
Suit built for War (2 copies)
Hit like a girl (2 copies)
Dressed to Impress (2 copies)
Fathers Son (2 copies)
Escrima Sticks (2 copies)
No Rest (2 copies)
Claws Come Out (2 copies)
Biggest Shockiest Gun (2 copies)
20 Common 2. Hero Cards
Blam! Blam! Blam! (2 copies)
Soultaker (2 copies)
I need air (2 copies)
Make an entrance (2 copies)
Team Leader (2 copies)
Little Big Man (2 copies)
Welcome to Gotham (2 copies)
Finally (2 copies)
Time of her lives (2 copies)
High Ground (2 copies)
10 Uncommon Hero Cards
Damn! Damn! Damn!
Clan of One
Grappling Hook
Quick Response
Use the Source
Boy Wonder
Perpetual Motion
Return from the Grave
Casing the Joint
Most Damage
4 Henchmen Cards
Strix
The Cleaners
League of Smiles
Citizens on Joker Toxin

Deck 3
10 Common 1. Hero Cards
Let's Split Up
Psycho Sword Chick
Suit built for War
Hit like a girl
Dressed to Impress
Fathers Son
Escrima Sticks
No Rest
Claws Come Out
Biggest Shockiest Gun
10 Common 2. Hero Cards
Blam! Blam! Blam!
Soultaker
I need air
Make an entrance
Team Leader
Little Big Man
Welcome to Gotham
Finally
Time of her lives
High Ground
10 Uncommon Hero Cards
Damn! Damn! Damn!
Clan of One
Grappling Hook
Quick Response
Use the Source
Boy Wonder
Perpetual Motion
Return from the Grave
Casing the Joint
Most Damage
10 Rare Hero Cards
Konichiwa Bitches!
Attack from Above
Guardian of Gotham
Heart of Steel
Canary Cry
Of Two Worlds
Flying Grayson
Outlaw
Crack the Whip
We're the Good Guys
5 Mastermind Cards
Court of Owls
Choke
The Joker - Death of the Family
The Joker - End Game
Mother
9 Villain Cards
Talon (2 copies)
Lincoln Marsh (2 copies)
Brendan Bowman (2 copies)
Trevor Cahill (2 copies
Harley Quinn

Deck 4
11 Villain Cards
The Flash
Wonder Woman
Aquaman
Superman
Harley Quinn
Red Hood (2 copies)
Orphan - David Cain (2 copies)
Azrael (2 copies)
17 Henchmen
Strix(3 copies)
The Cleaners(3 copies)
League of Smiles(3 copies)
Citizens on Joker Toxin (3 copies)
The Orphans (5 copies)
10 Villain Crimes
Balloon Bombs
Attack on Wayne Manor
Mind Control the Masses
Brain Bombs
Birth of the Joker
Dinner is Served
Intoxicate Gotham
Intoxicate Heroes
Eliminate the Bat Family
Icthys
16 Generic Crimes
Vandalism
Trespassing
Purse Snatching
Reckless Driving
Dischraging a Weapon
Bank Heist
Grand Theft Auto
Burglary
Assault
Kidnapping
Corruption in the GCPD
Poisoning the Water Supply
Bomb Threats in Gotham
Crime Families
Arkham Inmates Escape
Assassinate the Mayor
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Shane Fletcher
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Re: Legendary DC: Gotham Nights
EDIT: So the game testing we are doing has already altered the game quite significantly from what is printed here. I was going to go through and fix up the couple of grammatical errors, and change "Story Deck" back to "Villain Deck", but it seems a lot of work when we are still finalising the rules. If you are reading this message, then you have been warned that the Rule Sheet below is incorrect. Rule adjustments can be found in the following posts.

Instruction Sheet. It's 300dpi for printing, so the files are a decent size.

External image


http://www.firechildcreations.com/Legendary/Gotham.Nights/Go...

External image


http://www.firechildcreations.com/Legendary/Gotham.Nights/Go...
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Shane Fletcher
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Re: Legendary DC: Gotham Nights
Instructions printed. Cards arrived. Families arrived. Let's test this out.

External image
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Shane Fletcher
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Re: Legendary DC: Gotham Nights - Testing Game Play!
Finally had some time to talk with my son in law, the "deck building" gamer who introduced me to Legendary originally. He asked what I had been up to, and I told him. He was so excited to see the cards and read the instructions. He had so many great notes about the cards before we even played the game. Lots of tweaks to be made, because some of them are insanely powerful when used in combination. Then we played a game and talked till past midnight about what was good, what didn't work, and how to make it better. Looking forward to the next few games and the improvements to cards and play. Stay tuned …

EDIT:

Kinks to be ironed out.

- Dead cards (Strike or Twist played with no Mastermind or Crime to effect). If a Mastermind isn't present, or you've emptied the Crime Deck, then playing one of these cards is just a round of recruiting with no fighting required. First attempt at fix will be to massively increase the size of the Crime Deck, so that it never runs out, starting with playing with all 16 generic Crimes that come with the game and see if that is too many. We will add a an addendum so that if a Strike card is played with no Mastermind present, then it will revert to be a Crime Twist card so there is still a penalty. We will also try adding the Story Crimes and Masterminds to the Crime Deck so that there is a better chance of them coming out sooner.

- There was no chance of a Villains overrunning/escaping/infiltrating. A lot of this will be to do with Dead Cards, but it was also due to the Crimes being revealed from the Story Deck not moving the Villains through the City. Moving the Story Crimes to the Crime Deck will help fix this. Another option we thought of was playing another card from the Villain Deck, every time a Crime was revealed. I'm sure we'll try both of these options to see what might work best.

- Later stages of the game, after you had improved your deck, meant that there were turns when you had a lot of fighting, with nothing to punch, because the Mastermind wasn't always available as a target as it is in the Marvel game. Adding more Crimes and moving the Mastermind to the Crime Deck might help with that. Not sure of a better fix, without keeping the Mastermind out of the deck and on display as he is in the original game.

- Not sure if the Villain groups are strong enough. Will be hard to balance it correctly for 1 player and 5 players.

- Balance of some of the Heroes was out. Cat woman, with the mechanic of recruiting directly to your hand made her incredibly powerful.
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Shane Fletcher
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Re: Legendary DC: Gotham Nights - Testing Game Play!
Okay, we have now played a 5 player game, with Story Crimes and Masterminds shuffled into the Crime Deck. Two major Crimes came out in short order which powered us through the Injury Deck until it was depleted. We then had no fear of Crime Twists, so didn't bother solving those Crimes which means we didn't play through the Crime Deck very fast, and we did not get to the Masterminds. In short, still ironing out the kinks. Three thoughts at this point:

- Put the Masterminds and Crimes back into the Story Deck. I think we will just get to them sooner, because we are constantly playing out cards from that deck. Crime Deck should just be generic crimes, but perhaps solving them all is not such an urgent matter.
- The mechanic of the Injury Card might work better if cards are returned to the Injury Pile rather than KO'd. They are pretty easy to get rid of, whilst still allowing you to fight and recruit, so keeping them in play seems like a better trade off for that.
- Number of Story groups added to the Story Deck should not be equal to the number of players. At this point I think 1 or 2 players should have 2 Story groups, 3 players should have 3 story groups. 4 or 5 players should have 4 Story groups. 5 Masterminds and 10 Crimes is an awful lot for 5 players, but the Story Deck might not have enough cards for 5 players that way. Maybe it needs to be padded with an extra Villain or Henchman group for 5 players instead of another Story group. Will do so math ...
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Re: Legendary DC: Gotham Nights - Testing Game Play!
Is it possible to use the more conventional structure of 8-card Villain groups and 10-card Henchmen groups? This is one decision whose reason is obscure to me.

For that matter, if every crime group has a relatively weak crime (like Vandalism, which is fun but more annoying than a problem) then why couldn't there be 9-card crime/story groups at the tradeoff of zero bystanders in the Villain deck?

I'm watching this space, eager for updates. You also have inspired me to continue work on that old project of mine---though, I have to say, the "Biggest, Shockiest Gun" card for Bluebird remains basically perfect in name and art choice! (I only just read Batman Eternal and only just understood the reference!)

EDIT: I just caught that the Mastermind isn't out at first and the scheme isn't out at all. Is that right? For thematic reasons, it may be best to provide both Twist and Strike effects on a scheme card, at least. The Mastermind may remain hidden for thematic reasons---though, then again, since the player's doing the setup, there's not going to be any secret about who is the Mastermind of the particular dastardly scheme you're playing through.

It may be worth it to keep a Mastermind hidden in the Villain deck if and only if there's some way of keeping the Mastermind hidden until the end of the game, hidden even from the players who are doing the setup. That will take more imagination than I can muster at this hour.
 
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Shane Fletcher
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Re: Legendary DC: Gotham Nights - Testing Game Play!
Hi there. Thanks as always for your comments.

Anything is possible. The desire to change the structure comes from the concept put forward by Michael, linked to in my original post. The concept of running the villains as more of a story based on the comics seemed like a great way of altering the format of the game, just a bit, to make there more Masterminds and Schemes in play. Still working out the mechanics of making that work. Perhaps there will be no way to improve on (or to even make things as good as) the original game, and the new format will be abandoned. We are not there yet. If I can make it work, I can see a format to make small runs of cards that will adjust current Masterminds and Schemes we have in the original game. Still quite some ways off yet.

Thanks so much for your comment on the Bluebird card. So many of my cards draw their inspirations directly from the comics, and are in fact lines of dialogue.

Yes, at the time of writing, the Masterminds and their specific Schemes/Crimes get revealed as the game progresses. This is so that not all the Masterminds are out at the get go, and their introduction occurs later in the game, in the same way that you often don't see them on page 1 of the first comic. They are revealed later as their plan unfolds. Still working on the best mechanic of getting this to happen, without having the Mastermind appear to late in the game.

Thanks for all your thoughts. Will post more as I keep testing concepts.

Fletch
 
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Shane Fletcher
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Re: Legendary DC: Gotham Nights - Testing Game Play!
TheUbiquitous wrote:
For thematic reasons, it may be best to provide both Twist and Strike effects on a scheme card, at least.
And this is interesting. Our thoughts at the moment is that any Strike Card played with no Mastermind revealed becomes another Twist Card.
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Re: Legendary DC: Gotham Nights - Testing Game Play!
That could be very useful. However, I would recommend very carefully crafting your schemes, because lots and lots of schemes in the Marvel game are functionally "Evil Wins: 8 Twists." (Some say this outright, while others---like the later Helicarrier scheme---obfuscate it a little.) You might even need one or two fewer Twists in a standard setup for balancing reasons.
 
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Shane Fletcher
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Re: Legendary DC: Gotham Nights - Testing Game Play!
Yeah. It's possible that we actually need more, as the Crimes are getting Solved before there is any chance of Evil Winning. We are very unlucky if a Crime sees two Twists before it is solved and out of play. So maybe that means it should be hard to Solve?

I don't want to mess with the Twists too much, because my Son-in-Law is keen to mix and match with a regular game. So having a normal Mastermind and Scheme AND playing with Crimes and Masterminds. Am designing a Gotham Nights board now, which has spaces for both.

Done a couple of tests with one player, and putting the Mastermind and Story Crimes in with the Crime Deck. With the object of the game being to empty the Crime Deck and deal with all the cards that are revealed. This seems to have worked so far, but will do some more testing with a carried number of players. The formula I am using at the moment:

1 or 2 Players: 2 DC Villain Groups, 2 Misdemeanours, 2 Felonies & 2 Capital Crimes.
3 Players: 3 DC Villain Groups, 1 Misdemeanour, 1 Felony & 1 Capital Crime.
4 or 5 Players: 4 DC Villain Groups, No additional Crimes.

This keeps a Crime Deck of 12 cards. At the moment I am moving the Masterminds to Gotham to work their way through the City, but as I'm typing this I'm wondering whether they should be kept in Crime Alley ...
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Shane Fletcher
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Re: Legendary DC: Gotham Nights - Testing Game Play!
Fletch_smf wrote:
Villain Groups.

My first thoughts of changes to Michael's design was the number of Villains. I figured Upper Deck had done most of the heavy lifting for testing the Adversary Deck for certain number of players, so I looked at their numbers.

Players: Masterminds + Villains + Henchmen
1: 4+8+3=15
2: 4+16+10=30
3: 4+24+10=38
4: 4+24+20=48
5: 4+32+20=56

So assuming we wanted to keep the numbers similar, and be essentially adding a new Villain group for each player, I adjusted the Villain Groups to be 1 Mastermind, 4 Villains, 5 Henchmen, and 2 Specific Crimes. That would give us:

Players: Masterminds + Villains + Henchmen + Villain Crimes + Generic Crimes
1: 1+4+5+2+5=17
2: 2+8+10+4+5=29
3: 3+12+15+6+5=41
4: 4+16+20+8+5=53
5: 5+20+25+10+5=65
So, moving the Story Crimes and Masterminds to the Crime Deck has messed with the numbers. A few tests of 2 player games has meant that the Twists come out too fast now, which triggers a lot of effects and reveals a new crime. So, if Masterminds and Crimes all stay in Crime Alley, the Villain Deck looks like this:

Marvel Legendary
Players: Villains + Henchmen + Bystanders
1: 8 + 3 + 1 = 12
2: 16 + 10 + 2 = 28
3: 24 + 10 + 8 = 42
4: 24 + 20 + 8 = 52
5: 32 + 20 + 12 = 64

DC Gotham Nights (originally)
Players: Villains + Henchmen + Bystanders
1: 4 + 5 + 1 = 10 (2 short)
2: 8 + 10 + 2 = 20 (8 short)
3: 12 + 15 + 8 = 35 (7 short)
4: 16 + 20 + 8 = 44 (8 short)
5: 20 + 25 + 12 = 57 (7 short)

I adjusted the rules, so that two lots of Villain Groups are used for 1 player, which would have made me 7 over. I have also capped the groups so that 5 players only fight against 4 Villain Groups, so that would put us 20 short.

In the mean time, it seems like adding a Villain group from Marvel Legendary would get us to the right numbers, but obviously I would prefer to keep the game stand alone. Adding two more Villains to each group would make it:

Players: Villains + Henchmen + Bystanders
1: 6 + 5 + 1 = 12 (Same)
2: 12 + 10 + 2 = 24 (4 short)
3: 18 + 15 + 8 = 41 (1 short)
4: 24 + 20 + 8 = 52 (Same)
5: 30 + 25 + 12 = 67 (3 Over)

However, adding a 5th Mastermind and Story Crimes we think is a bit overwhelming, so best bet for 5 players is adding a random Villain/Adversary group from the Marvel game, which would keep the required number of cards the same.

So those numbers seem pretty good. It means Villain sets are now 14 cards (same as Hero sets) and it means adding another Villain if possible, making 3 copies of 2 villains, or some combination there of. End Game has 4 different Heroes working as Villains, so duplicating 2 of those will be no hardship.

However, it does mean the set is now 10 cards larger than it was previously. Will need to look at how that will fit together and what we can lose. Doing a full run, it should be possible to drop the extra Starting hand cards, Twists and Strikes to cover the 10 extra cards needed. Would be messier if just printing the necessary game cards. Dropping the Generic Crimes from 16 to 6 would put a big dent in them, but they could be made up in other expansions. Also, printing one larger deck is another possibility.

Looking ahead to small expansions of 2 decks (108 cards) 7 hero/villains groups at 14 cards each comes to 98 cards. 4 Heroes and 3 Villains would probably be a nice blend. The remaining 10 cards could be extra Generic Crimes, Bystanders or Sidekicks.
 
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Re: Legendary DC: Gotham Nights - Testing Game Play!
Are you going with one of the last two for sure? Wouldn't bumping up the number of henchmen still keep the difficulty relatively lower?

If you're planning on mixing-and-matching Marvel and Gotham, some 4-strength Henchmen (without Bribe) may be in order. I realize the Talons are plenty tough, but the others? Not as much.

Another option would be to weaken the Hero decks, but that would decrease how possible it would be to mix-and-match Marvel and Gotham.
 
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Shane Fletcher
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Re: Legendary DC: Gotham Nights - Testing Game Play!
None of this is for sure, but rather the best ideas I have at the moment to fix the problems. The number of Henchmen is still pretty close to the Marvel game, so that's why I didn't focus on increasing them. There is obviously more things to attack with the Crimes that need to be dealt with, but I am trying to balance that deck by using weaker Crimes so it's not such a blow. Maybe the best idea is to increase the number of Bystanders in the Villain Deck, so that it fills it out with no extra fighting required. These are all up for grabs at the moment.

I have played a couple of 2 handed games today with an extra Marvel Villain group in the Villain Deck and that certainly takes the pressure off. More play is obviously required, especially all the way up to 5 handed.

Thanks for your thoughts, as always.
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Shane Fletcher
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Re: Legendary DC: Gotham Nights - Testing Game Play!
The Tweak Post.

Going to keep this post as a place for all the adjustments I need to do to all the cards. Want to get as much paper editing done before I make over the whole set.

Heroes
Batgirl
Make an Entrance - Maybe should be Instinct?
Hit Like a Girl - 1 Attack and 2 Cost
Rare - Should read "The next Villain you defeat …"
Cards not thematically strong. Look at swapping among Nightwing and Robin

Batman
Rare - Swap his Rare with Black Canary, so he solves the Crime and rename the card to "World's Greatest Detective"
Grappling Hook - Use the Patrol the Rooftops keyword.
Two Patrol the Rooftop cards. Change one.


Black Canary
Swapped with Batman's Rare ability
Uncommon too strong. Alter.


Bluebird
Biggest Shockiest Gun - Make it Tech: +2 Attack
The High Ground - Cost of 2


Catwoman
Time of her Lives - Recruit to Discard.
Case the Joint - is too strong. Adjust to be +1 for each card with VP
Crack the Whip - Make Spectrum be the trigger.


Katana
Colour corrections.
Change Soultaker to check the Villain or Crime Deck.


Nightwing
Colour corrections.
Cards not thematically strong. Look at swapping among Nightwing and Robin

Red Hood
Change Hero group to be Outlaws to work with future expansions.
Change his commons to be KO a hero rather than any card.
Back from the Grave - Make it Recruitable from the KO Pile.
Adjust Commons so that one KOs from Hand, other from Discard Pile


Robin
Colour Corrections
Cards not thematically strong. Look at swapping among Nightwing and Robin
Also, make a 2 Cost card if it fits.


Starling
Colour Corrections
Blam! - Change to 1 attack and Cost of 2


Villain Groups
Death in the Family
Harley Quinn - also in Crime Alley.

Story Notes: Joker (who had his own face cut off in an earlier comic) relives a lot of his story lines, including the Chemical Factory accident where he was "made". He makes Harley Quinn dress up as the Red Hood (yes, Harley is both the Villains in this set) and tries to kill Batman in a chemical vat like the one that turned him into The Joker. He kidnaps all the Bat Family, starting with Alfred, and ending with Batman. He throws a "dinner" with the family in the catacombs near the Batcave, Batman being the guest of honour, and Alfred, Intoxicated on Joker Toxin, serving. All the bat family have their faced bandaged and Joker reveals that he has cut all their faces off. Except, of course, that he hasn't. He tries to blow them up, but Batman saves everyone, and in a final showdown (until next the next story at least) the Joker falls down a chasm.

Joker
Ambush - Captures a non Grey Hero from your hand
Strike - Same effect
Fight - Rescue all the Heroes
- inspired by him kidnapping all the Batfamily and Batman rescuing them.

Birth of the Joker
Ambush - Each player discards a Batman card or gains an injury
Twist - Each player with a Batman card gains an injury
Solve - KO an Injury from your hand/discard. If you do, draw a card.
- inspired by that specific scene with Joker/Red Hood/Harley Quinn trying to kill Batman in the vat of chemicals. Might be too Batman specific, and could possibly just be discarding a non-grey Hero. Not sure about the Twist ...

Dinner is Served
Cannot be solved if there is another Death of the Family card up.
Ambush - Each player discards all their Batfamily cards.
Twist - Play Death of the Family cards from the top 3 of the Villain Deck
Solve - Defeat Death of the Family cards from the top 3 of the Villain Deck.
- Pretty happy with this card. Always open to suggestions though. No "Evil Wins" scenario on either card. Really want one of those in each Villain group.

Red Hood
Ambush - KO a Batfamily card from the Batcave
Fight - Same effect
- Like the Ambush. Not sure if Fight should be the same effect.

Harley Quinn
Harley gets -1 attack for each Red Hood or Joker card up.
Fight - Draw a Card.
- Happy that Joker (who manipulates her) and Red Hood (who is her, playing an alter ego of his) both make her less than she is on her own. Don't know if Draw a Card is the right effect for it though ...

League of Smiles
Fight - KO a Hero.
- This story is full of all sorts of crazies that are styling themselves after The Joker to "change the world". This gang seem to be as a good a choice as any. None of them are Henchmen to the Joker, per se, but they are small time crooks that can do damage.

End Game
Joker - Does not Revive or Infiltrate

Story Notes: (Spoilers, obviously) Story starts with the Justice League attacking Batman. It soon becomes apparent that they have been the victim of individually developed Joker Toxin. Batman goes to interview a Janitor with information about the Joker, who turns out to be the Joker himself. A joker who is healed, and has his face back. Turns out when the Joker fell down that chasm, he gained access to the pool of special liquid that the Court of Owls uses to make immortal foot soldiers. And whilst the Joker has not been embalmed in it to make him impervious to any attack, he has access to it and can heal future injuries.

He Intoxicates the city with a gas, and things get pretty wild in Gotham, with citizens turning on everyone, but mainly aiming to get at our Heroes, of course. Joker confronts Commissioner Gordon, who is forced to defend himself, and shoots the Joker. We think it's over, because we don't know about that magic liquid that he has found. So it's quite a surprise when he re-enters frame behind Jim Gordon whilst he's telling Batman that the Joker is out of the picture. Scarey stuff. Because the Joker has an axe. Maybe a tomahawk. Something solid with a sharp edge. He uses it.

Batman is concerned when the call is cut off and gets to Gordon's place of residence. He calls an ambulance and tells Jim he will be okay. Jim pulls out the axe and tries to attack Batman. He's been intoxicated, don't you know. But then taken to the hospital to recuperate.

Big final showdown, with many of the other Villains coming to help the Batfamily save Gotham. They don't want this apocalypse vision that the Joker has, becoming a reality either. Joker has a big fight, where he takes down Batman and unmasks him. Oops. It's Dick Grayson. Foiled again. Where's the real Batman? Searching the catacombs to find the pool of magic liquid which will help him save everyone and return Gotham to normal. He realised the Joker must have found it when he fell after "Death of the Family". Joker rushes to stop Batman from spoiling his fun. Or maybe just to kill him. Either way, huge epic battle. Batman causes a cave in. Stalactite falls and breaks Jokers spine. Joker is trying to crawl to his pool of magic revival liquid, but Batman is holding on tight to keep him from getting there. They both die.

Except, of course, that neither of them do. But it's a great way to end a story, and I'm not sure I captured the epicness of it with these cards, or even if I can.

Joker
Ambush - Joker receives an Injury
Strike - Joker receives an Injury. He gets +1 Recruit for each Injury he has to Recruit a Hero into Gotham as a Villain.
Fight - Gain all the Injuries Joker has.
- This seemed a fun way to play with Injuries AND intoxicate Villains into Gotham. The longer Joker goes on, the bigger and badder the Villains will be. Maybe Joker should have a "Can not fight" rule to make things tougher?

Intoxicate Gotham
Cannot be solved if an Intoxicated citizen is in Gotham.
Ambush - Randomly choose an Intoxicated citizen (Bystander, Commish, New Recruit or Sidekick) to enter Gotham.
Twist - Stack the twist under this Crime. An Intoxicated Citizen enters Gotham for each card in this pile.
Solve - Randomly choose a Citizen to add to your discard or victory pile.
- Pretty happy with this.

Intoxicate the Heroes
Cannot solve this crime if there is an intoxicated Hero in Gotham.
Ambush - Top card of the Hero Deck enters Gotham as a Villain with attack equal to it's cost plus Infiltrate.
Twist - Stack the twist under this crime. An Intoxicated Hero enters Gotham for each card in this pile.
Solve - +3 Recruit to spend on Batfamily Heroes.
Evil Wins - if an Intoxicated Hero Infiltrates the Batcave.
- Pretty happy with this. Seemed a good way to have a losing scenario here as well.

Obvious choice to have recruitable Heroes as the Villains.

Flash
Gain as a Hero with 2 attack
JL: Reveal top 3 of the Villain Deck. Get +1 attack for each Villain revealed that is 5 attack or higher.

Wonder Woman
Gain as a Hero with 3 attack
JL: Reveal top 3 cards of the Villain Deck. +1 for each Bystander.

Aquaman
Gain as a Hero with 2 Recruit
JL: +1 Recruit for each JL card you played this turn.

Superman
Gain as a Hero with 4 attack
JL: +1 attack for each JL card you played this turn.

Citizens on Joker Toxin
Fight - KO a card from hand or discard
- The only think about this, is the double up with the fact that we are Intoxicating Citizens with that Crime. Also, the two crimes are pretty similar. Perhaps losing the Intoxicate Citizens Crime is the way to go, and replace it with another main story crime.

Mother's Children
Mother - Ambush Effect does not include Heroes that are part of a Villain group. Perhaps clarifications on the Rule Sheet.
Eliminate the Bat Family - Might be too harsh on the Bat family.

Story Points: SPOILERS AGAIN, OBV. Mother is a psycho who has been orphaning children and then maniuplating them to become soldiers. There's a whole question as to whether she was responsible for the death of Bruce's parents, and how that might have worked out. It's a pretty cool idea for a story. Anyway ...

No Batman in this story. This takes place after "End Game" and although Bruce is alive, he cannot remember that he is Batman. Story starts with a hit being taken out on a whole bunch of people, including all our Bat Heroes. Mother is tying up some loose ends. One of the Orphans is a young girl, Cassandra Cain, who gives Dick Grayson the Hitlist with all the names on it. She doesn't want to be a Villain. Her dad, David Cain, (so how is she an Orphan?) is a bad guy and he is trying to kill everyone.

Lots of stuff going on here with Bane and Azrael and another crazy monk type order, and an attack at a Ballet recital, but we don't have room for everything. Icthys is a satellite that broadcasts to the world, and turns all the kids of the world into psychos that want to kill all the adults. Story ends with an enormous battle on every continent (save Antarctica ... nothing fun ever happens there) with the Bat family trying to keep the children from killing other people, and the other Grown up orphans from killing them. Pretty epic. They crash the satelite, save the world, and David Cain returns to kill Mother, after he realises that, you know, she wasn't a great mother after all.

Mother
Ambush - Randomly draw a non-grey Hero to enter Gotham as a Villain with Infiltrate.
Strike - As Above.
Fight - Rescure 3 Bystanders
- Ambush is inspired by the beginning of the story when Dick Grayson is betrayed by one of his friends, who has been a plant for Mother the whole time, waiting for her moment. The Strike plays on this, but I think there is something better. The Fight effect is trying to be the same as the Icthys Solve, but with a guaranteed payout. Don't know if it works.

Eliminate the Bat Family.
You cannot solve this crime if there is a Hero in Gotham.
Ambush - Each player KOs a Batfamily card. If they cannot, they gain an injury.
Twist - Same effect.
Solve - Player of your choice gets the top card of the Hero Deck.
Evil Wins - when the number of KO'd Batfamily Cards is two times the number of players +2.
- The "Cannot solve" is pretty weak because there is only one effect (in this villain group) that gets Heroes into Gotham as Villains. As I say above, KOing cards in the Ambush and Twist is super harsh. This is, of course, the aim of the Crime, but still ... The main reason to keep it is because of the "Evil Wins" option. But really the whole Crime could be reworked.

Icthys
You cannot solve this crime if there is a Hero in Gotham.
Ambush - Any Bystanders captured by Villains become Villains in their own right.
Twist - Same effect
Solve - Rescue any Bystanders that are Villains in Gotham.
- Again with the weak "cannot solve". I like the Ambush and Twist, because it is about Bystanders suddenly becoming Villains that need to be dealt with, but it's not tied together very well, because there is no mechanic for Villains to capture Bystanders. It's pretty obvious I was trying to get this Villain Group out before the December deadline. Everything is very rushed.

Orphan - David Cain
You can't defeat David Cain unless you a Saviour (3 Bystanders in your Victory Pile).
Fight - Draw a Card
- Again, trying to get the whole Bystander thing in by using Saviour. In play, it means that he often Escapes because no-one can do anything with him. And the whole Saviour thing doesn't make much sense as a method of stopping you attacking him. Would probably be better as a bonus you get after you've fought him. You might not get it off the first one, but eventually you would. This is, of course, after we've fixed up the Mastermind and Crimes to have more to do with Bystanders entering Gotham and needing to be rescued.

Azrael
Gain as a Hero with 2 attack.
Azrael gets +2 attack against Mother's Children cards.
- Azrael, much like David Cain, releases he's been used. He comes back with a grudge, so I'm pretty happy with this card.

The Orphans (Henchman, but 4 attack)
Fight - +1 Recruit
- Made these Henchman 4 attack, because they are highly trained operatives, unlike the League of Smiles and the Intoxicated Citizens. But it might be too much. Might have been better to make Intoxicated Citizens 2 attack Henchman instead. Hmm ... Also, should probably have something more Bystander related as we're reworking this Villain Group.

Night of Owls
Court of Owls - Use the Cost Symbol

Court of Owls
+2 for Night of Owls cards
Ambush - Play Night of Owl cards from Villain Deck
Strike - KO Highest Hero
Fight - NO EFFECT

Paper Balloons
Ambush - Reveal a Night of the Owls card or gain an Injury
Twist - As Above
Solve - KO a Hero from hand or discard

Wayne Manor
You must have Batman
Ambush - Reveal Batman or gain an Injury
Twist - As Above
Solve - +2 Recruit

Talon - No Fight Effects

Lincoln Marsh
Amubush - If you hold a Batman, get an Injury

Strix/Mary - Recruit and KO Injuries

Trouble in Mind
Mind Control the Masses - Clarify that it is only Villains in Gotham that charge one space.

Choke
+2 for Bystanders
Ambush - 2 Bystanders enter as Villains
Strike - Discard hand and redraw
Fight - Rescue a Bystander

Mind Control
Cannot be solved if there are Bystanders
Ambush - Trouble in Mind Villains capture a Bystander
Twist - Trouble Villains Charge 1 space.
Solve - Everyone discards a card.

Brain Bombs
+1 for every Bystander in the KO pile
You cannot solve if there is a Trouble Villain on the board
Ambush - KO any Bystander that is a Villain. Then a Bystander enters as a Villain.
Twist - same effect
Solve - Each player draws a card.
Evil Wins - This Crime has KO'd 5 Bystanders.

Trevor Cahill
+1 for Trouble in Mind Villains
Ambush - Player to the Right of the Right gains an Injury
Fight - Same effect

Brendon Bowman
Fight +2 Recruit

The Cleaners
Fight - Gain a Bystander


Generic Crimes
Crime Families Wage War - Playing two cards each turn goes through the Villain Deck to fast. Put that back to a Twist effect.
Poison the Reservoir - Clarify Bystanders that are captured, or villains, etc.

Other Cards
Injury Cards - Make it "… return this card to the Injury Pile" rather than to KO it.

Instructions and General Changes
Change "Story Deck" back to "Villain Deck".
Revive: Clarify that you still get the Bystanders from any Villain that Revives.
Comment that Night of the Owls is designed to be played with Batman and Batgirl Heroes.
Remove the "Place in Crime Alley" comment from the Story Crimes.
Remove Infiltrate or Escape from any Mastermind.
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Re: Legendary DC: Gotham Nights - Testing Game Play!
Would an "Escape: Ascend to become a new Mastermind with such-and-such a Master Strike effect" work in place of outright removing the escape effects? (I forget if this is what you had---with all those images, the first page takes a while to load.)
 
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Re: Legendary DC: Gotham Nights - Testing Game Play!
TheUbiquitous wrote:
Would an "Escape: Ascend to become a new Mastermind with such-and-such a Master Strike effect" work in place of outright removing the escape effects? (I forget if this is what you had---with all those images, the first page takes a while to load.)
The Masterminds are already Masterminds with Strike effects when they are revealed. The reason they don't need an escape effect in Crime Alley, is that if Crime Alley fills up then Evil Wins and the game is over.

Sorry about the load time with the images. It was just a rig marole to make two different size images for display and download with so many cards being created. And I wanted to host them locally so that any changes I made were immediately reflected in the cards in these posts.
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Re: Legendary DC: Gotham Nights - Testing Game Play!
Fletch_smf wrote:


DC Gotham Nights (originally)
Players: Villains + Henchmen + Bystanders
1: 4 + 5 + 1 = 10 (2 short)
2: 8 + 10 + 2 = 20 (8 short)
3: 12 + 15 + 8 = 35 (7 short)
4: 16 + 20 + 8 = 44 (8 short)
5: 20 + 25 + 12 = 57 (7 short)

...

In the mean time, it seems like adding a Villain group from Marvel Legendary would get us to the right numbers, but obviously I would prefer to keep the game stand alone. Adding two more Villains to each group would make it:
Okay, so my test play has been with an extra stand alone Villain group, and that has worked really well. I also see a problem with increasing the number of themed Villains to a Story, as it will drastically increase the power of a Mastermind or Crime that has "+1 attack for my Villains in Gotham". Adding a non affiliated Villain group helps break things up a bit. So, my latest thoughts are not to increase the size of the Villain groups, but use other groups to fill out the deck.

Adding in Marvel Villain groups works fine, but adding in DC groups, minus the Mastermind and Crimes works as well. This essentially means not having to change anything in the construction of the game.

Another viable option, is to add plain Villain groups to the set or expansions, of 8 (or 9) cards each. This would mean, I could get some Villains in there that I didn't have a chance to do. Like an "Arkham Asylum" group of escaped inmates. Or various Penguin, Riddler, Poison Ivy and Bane cards, who are just creating some mayhem, but aren't part of the bigger picture.

Things to think about.
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Re: Legendary DC: Gotham Nights - Testing Game Play!
A post for the Bystanders

External image


External image



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So I'm working on a Lucious Fox and a Harvey Bullock card and I can no longer call them Bystanders. The mechanic should be the same, as they shouldn't be recruitable cards, but they need a new name, like SUPPORT, FEATURED, GUEST STARS, GOTHAM FRIENDS, GOTHAMITES, CITIZENS ... something ...
 
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Re: Legendary DC: Gotham Nights - Testing Game Play!
But that does describe their function in the stories, usually. What is the distinction functionally? Perhaps that will give a clue to what the word could be for them thematically.

You could continue with the crime theme and say "Witness" or "Accessory" or "Partner." However, considering the superhero part of Batman, and considering that these persons will be captured every so often, it occurs to me that the most natural word for both situations may well be "Bystander."
 
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Re: Legendary DC: Gotham Nights - Testing Game Play!
TheUbiquitous wrote:
But that does describe their function in the stories, usually. What is the distinction functionally? Perhaps that will give a clue to what the word could be for them thematically.

You could continue with the crime theme and say "Witness" or "Accessory" or "Partner." However, considering the superhero part of Batman, and considering that these persons will be captured every so often, it occurs to me that the most natural word for both situations may well be "Bystander."
Bystander and Witness are both very passive words. Accessory and Partner are more in line with these characters, because they are definitely involved in the goings on. Bystanders in Marvel Legendary are definitely non-descript and passive, so maybe these should be a separate category? But again, not a recruitable Hero or sidekick. A surprise bonus that comes along freely, just like the Bystander mechanic.

At the risk of confusion with Legendary Villains, maybe Ally is the best term?
 
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Re: Legendary DC: Gotham Nights - Testing Game Play!
Are all of the (Bystanders) going to be the unique, special Bystanders? You'll need 30 of them, meaning at least eight to ten designs to be duplicated? If so, then something more active would work. However, from what I remember with the cartoons and the comics, a lot of time these folks are just regular Joes who are tied up to a deathtrap, or victims of Joker toxin, or (in a personal favorite episode) who are coerced into gassing the Policeman's Ball.1 That last one, where the Bystander has a bit of agency, is more generally an exception rather than the rule.

As far as Ally, it'll come down to the tradeoff. Do you gain enough by Ally that it's worth risking perhaps confusing people who print out your customs and mix them with Villains content? Put that way, I think perhaps that the risk is revealed to be negligible!

1 Joker's Favor: https://dcau.wikia.com/wiki/Joker's_Favor
 
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Re: Legendary DC: Gotham Nights - Testing Game Play!
TheUbiquitous wrote:
Are all of the (Bystanders) going to be the unique, special Bystanders? You'll need 30 of them, meaning at least eight to ten designs to be duplicated? If so, then something more active would work. However, from what I remember with the cartoons and the comics, a lot of time these folks are just regular Joes who are tied up to a deathtrap, or victims of Joker toxin, or (in a personal favorite episode) who are coerced into gassing the Policeman's Ball.1 That last one, where the Bystander has a bit of agency, is more generally an exception rather than the rule.

As far as Ally, it'll come down to the tradeoff. Do you gain enough by Ally that it's worth risking perhaps confusing people who print out your customs and mix them with Villains content? Put that way, I think perhaps that the risk is revealed to be negligible!

1 Joker's Favor: https://dcau.wikia.com/wiki/Joker's_Favor
Thanks so much for being a sounding board. It has helped clarify things.

Okay, my current thoughts are that I will keep them as Bystanders, but some will be recruitable to your hand, like Aaron did here. https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1537753/new-warriors-and-re... I had the thought after playing Legendary Firefly which has some cards like that in it, and my SIL mentioned this idea as well.

I very much like his idea that a Villain who captures one of these of Recruitable Bystanders is at -1 attack because these Bystanders will be actively working to stop the Villain.

With the Base cards getting printed up in 3 decks, the make up them will be 18 "Vanilla" Bystanders and 3 copies of 4 recruitable ones. Just need to make a Lucius Fox Card, but having a little trouble finding the art.

Although having said that, maybe 9 Recruitable Bystanders and 21 Vanilla Cards is a better ratio for the game to begin with anyway. Might leave it there for the moment.

EDIT: Made the Harvey and Alfred cards recruitable, but the Vicki Vale was better as a one off effect, so left her as a Bystander. Now to find some art for the regular Bystander cards.
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Re: Legendary DC: Gotham Nights - Testing Game Play!
Your work is great!!
I am writing from a community of over 20 Legendary players in Spain who are looking forward to playing with the DC characters.
Thank you!
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