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Subject: Idea for new faction: Jedi rss

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Pascal Amberg
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====Jedi==== (v.3.1)


Character Description
Jedi are not terraforming the landscape using workers, they use power to do so. The Jedi's dwelling provide power instead of workers as income.



Faction Ability
Jedi can at any time during their turn buy a new power token for one coin. The new power token is placed in the first bowl.


Stronghold
The stronghold makes the direct conversion of power half as expensive for the Jedi.


Other Details
- All the dwellings provide an income of two power.
- Terraforming is done with power, not with workers.


Additional remarks
- The version 3.1 is only tested once so far and the lastest changes seem appropriate. I'm happy to incorporate any feedback into future Versions.
- Credits to Grovast for his faction board templates.




====Jedi==== (v.3.0)


Character Description
Jedi are not terraforming the landscape using workers, they use power to do so. The Jedi's dwelling provide power instead of workers as income.



Faction Ability
Jedi can at any time during their turn buy a new power token for two coins. The new power token is placed in the first bowl.


Stronghold
The stronghold makes the direct conversion of power half as expensive for the Jedi. Note that the stronghold is cheaper to build if there are no adjacent neighbours.


Other Details
- All the dwellings provide an income of two power.
- Terraforming is done with power, not with workers.
- The stronghold is quite expensive, especially as it requires three priests.


Additional remarks
- The old version (2.2.) of the Jedi faction has been tested twice and didn't seem to be completely unbalanced (on our level of play, which is probably not very high). Version 3.0 is untested so far. I'm happy to incorporate any feedback into future Versions.
- Credits to Grovast for his faction board templates.


[-]====Jedi==== (v.2.2)


Character Description
Jedi are not terraforming the landscape using workers, they use power to do so. The Jedi's dwelling provide power instead of workers as income.



Faction Ability
Jedi can at any time during their turn buy a new power token for two coins. The new power token is placed in the first bowl.


Stronghold
The stronghold provides a one-time benefit of 12 victory points


Other Details
- All the dwellings provide an income of two power.
- Terraforming is done with power, not with workers.
- The stronghold is quite expensive, especially as it requires three priests.


Additional remarks
- The faction has been tested twice and didn't seem to be completely unbalanced (on our level of play, which is probably not very high). I'm happy to incorporate any feedback into future Versions.
- Credits to Grovast for his faction board templates.
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Robert
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I see no normal way for Jedis to earn workers.

So their only sources for workers are
- power action ACT3
- 3pw-to-1w direct conversion
- 1p-to-1w direct conversion
- workers from cult scoring
- workers from bonus tiles BON5, BON6, BON7
- workers from favor tile FAV7
- workers from town tile TW2

Correct?

In order to get a decent network of e.g. 13 hexes, they need to build 11D, 5TP and 1TE (probably more), for 23 workers minimum. Subtract the 3w they get for starters, and they need 20+ workers from the sources listed above. Clearly they will favor FAV7 over any other favor, but that's just 5w. Add 3* ACT3 for another 6w. That leaves 9+ workers from cults, bonus tiles, town tiles and direct conversion. I guess there will be at least 4 3pw-to-1w conversions required.
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Space Trucker
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That's a very extreme faction, but at a first glimpse I really like the idea.

I guess their abolity to generate workers is actually still a good bit too low.
Yedis would actually more or less be forced to take fav7 (1w+1pw) - which is okay to some degree - that's a bit like Yedis who really like fav8(+4pw), but still that's only one worker (maybe 2 if you convert priest).
Even if you are able to get act3 (4pw-->2w) each turn, your first 3 dwellings would only generate 2 workers.

Upgrade digging is probably very hard to afford as it costs valuable workers. Maybe it should cost sth. else?

Maybe the SA could also give 2 priests like Swarmlings and Darklings?

Have you thought about reducing the worker costs of your buildings, maybe to the same amount that engineers have to pay? (d, tp, te: 1w, Sa: 3w)
 
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Matthias Reitberger
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I would alternate the dwellings between 2pw and 1w.
If you consider that you need 8pw income to take act3 for 2 workers, the income for dwellings is on half that of a normal faction.
What are the advantages?
Without digging upgrade you can terraform at the cost of act6.

You start with 3w+15c+0/11/1 pw.
Guess BON5 would be quite good -> 4w+15c+0/8/4 pw
Act3 -> 6w+15c+4/8/0 pw
You should build a temple for Fav7 to get a worker income and 2 Dwellings. You need 2pw leech, should work.
But your income for second round is still bad and you have no Fav11 for scoring.

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Alban Thomas
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Also like the global idea, of course maybe some adjustments are needed.

Their spade conversion rate is rather advantageous, so I think it's not so unfair if they have to run after Workers on the other hand.
Given their starting cult, they will love the 2AIR>>1W in early game, and hate each other with ACT3 fond factions (Alchemists...). I don't know if it's a real problem. Maybe it makes them too situational.

As Spacetrucker pointed, their digging upgrade cost is a problem though.

Another unsatisfying point is the SH : the 3P cost is original, but the effect is similar to Cultists, and has no particular gameplay interest (beyond the +4PW).
Assuming they might be interested in the 1P>1W direct conversion, an idea could be that the SH improves this conversion when built. Maybe 1P>1W+1VP or 1P>2W.

IMHO quite good draft anyway.
I know how tricky and ungrateful design alternative factions can be, but keep on working on this!
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Matthias Reitberger
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They are very situational, they need Spade>>2VP to have any scoring options.
 
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Pascal Amberg
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Thank you all for the unbelievable fast feedback. I will for sure continue to work on the faction.

@Robert: Yes, these are the "only" options to get worker. However these are still several options and even though getting workers is (intentionally) the biggest challenge for the Jedis, I didn't find it too difficult.

@Grovast: Thanks for the ideas regarding the SH. As I want the SH to be paid with priests, I don't think the p->w conversion would be interesting for them after building the SH. But probably a cheaper power to worker conversion would be an interesting alternative?
 
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Matthias Reitberger
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Instead of 2c -> power token (is probably only useful to abuse SPADE>>2VP) 2pw -> w or 1c+1pw -> w
 
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Pascal Amberg
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1869 wrote:
Instead of 2c -> power token (is probably only useful to abuse SPADE>>2VP) 2pw -> w or 1c+1pw -> w


The idea behind 2c - > power token is as follows: In the earlier game Jedi make intense use of the power burning to be able to buy workers and terraforming. During the course of the game, while the power income of the Jedi is extremely high, they need more power tokens again...which they can get with their faction ability.
 
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Matthias Reitberger
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That's clear but it's probably too expensive to be useful, at least without spade scoring.
 
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Trey Chambers
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Maybe allow them to trade Power for Workers at any time, so they can't possibly cap out and have wasted Power.
 
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Robert
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Shampoo4you wrote:
Maybe allow them to trade Power for Workers at any time, so they can't possibly cap out and have wasted Power.
But they CAN trade 3pw-to-1w whenever they have an action due. And if they lack sufficient power tokens (8D alone already mean 18pw income), they have the 2c-to-1pw conversion. The OP writes that getting sufficient workers was challenging, but achievable. Clearly this will be especially hard against ACT3-loving opponents (Alchmeists, Engineers, to some degree Swarmlings and in round 1 many of the SH-builders plus Darklings)
 
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Trey Chambers
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DocCool wrote:
But they CAN trade 3pw-to-1w whenever they have an action due.


Of course, I'm talking about when you have a power overflow during income. Otherwise why would I bring it up.
 
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Pascal Amberg
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Shampoo4you wrote:
Maybe allow them to trade Power for Workers at any time, so they can't possibly cap out and have wasted Power.


Don't you think this would take away some of the interesting decisions the Jedi would face and make them too strong?
 
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Trey Chambers
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Ambi6 wrote:
Shampoo4you wrote:
Maybe allow them to trade Power for Workers at any time, so they can't possibly cap out and have wasted Power.


Don't you think this would take away some of the interesting decisions the Jedi would face and make them too strong?


Maybe, but it might be an easy solution to their worker problem. Obviously it would need to be tested.
 
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willy wumse
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Just tested this in a 2 player game with my GF.
She was in a constant need of workers and even though she played very good, she ended the game with only 86 points, which is abysmal in a 2 player game.

MY SUGGESTION:
Make them able to change 2PW into 1W instead of the standard 3PW -> 1W.
Maybe even 4PW -> 1P
 
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James Wolfpacker
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How about allowing unlimited access to ACT3 as the faction ability and changing the SH to give them 12vp and power for 2c -> 1 Bowl I power token? Instead of 3P + 4c SH cost, make it 2P + 2W + 4c for the SH. If unlimited access to ACT3 is too much then give them an action or two as the faction ability to gain some workers and playtest the amount needed to gain.
 
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willy wumse
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JamesWolfpacker wrote:
How about allowing unlimited access to ACT3 as the faction ability and changing the SH to give them 12vp and power for 2c -> 1 Bowl I power token? Instead of 3P + 4c SH cost, make it 2P + 2W + 4c for the SH. If unlimited access to ACT3 is too much then give them an action or two as the faction ability to gain some workers and playtest the amount needed to gain.


Good ideas. Someone should test these ^^
 
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Pascal Amberg
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Thanks for all the good ideas. I liked all of them. I didn't want to incorporate all the changes, as i pretty much liked the Jedi faction already as it was.

From all the feedback, i liked the one most that the stronghold is kind of boring and should provide something that makes it cheaper to get workers.

So here you go with version 3.0: Direct power conversion gives now double output, when the stronghold is built. Still there are priests required to built the stronghold, i decided to make it dependent from adjacent opponents. It work's the opposite way as the trading post: Adjacency makes it more expensive (2 priests instead of one), as there are more priests required to defend the stronghold if it is close to opponents.

Hope you like the idea. I'm open to any new feedback.

As stated, this is still untested (sorry for that, but due to the blue microbagde i have, the time for plying Terra Mystica is currently a bit limited. And we still have to play through our Essen2016 haul)
 
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Dvonn Yinsh
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Can you upload a high-res image so that the player board is printable?
 
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Pascal Amberg
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Ambi6 wrote:
Thanks for all the good ideas. I liked all of them. I didn't want to incorporate all the changes, as i pretty much liked the Jedi faction already as it was.

From all the feedback, i liked the one most that the stronghold is kind of boring and should provide something that makes it cheaper to get workers.

So here you go with version 3.0: Direct power conversion gives now double output, when the stronghold is built. Still there are priests required to built the stronghold, i decided to make it dependent from adjacent opponents. It work's the opposite way as the trading post: Adjacency makes it more expensive (2 priests instead of one), as there are more priests required to defend the stronghold if it is close to opponents.

Hope you like the idea. I'm open to any new feedback.

As stated, this is still untested (sorry for that, but due to the blue microbagde i have, the time for plying Terra Mystica is currently a bit limited. And we still have to play through our Essen2016 haul)


Why nobody told me that I uploaded the old version again instead of the new one? :-). Fixed it now.
 
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Bobrov Alexander
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We tested the Jedi.
They are still too weak.
Their mechanics are like a yeti, so I will compare with them.
Let's think what they have after building the stronghold.
3pw -> 6c (slightly worse than the Yeti)
2.5pw -> 1priest (slightly worse than the Yeti)
3pw -> 1spade (same or slightly worse than the Yeti)
3pw -> 2w (the same as the Yeti)
While the income from dwelling they have only 2pw, so for 3 dwellings they have 2 workers, as engineers. (Do not have income from 0, 3 and 6 dwellings)

As a result, they need to spend most of their power on workers, which minimizes the positive stats of their abilities.
Therefore, their advantages with SH are approximately equal to the lacks.

Without a stronghold, the Jedi are absolutely terrible. This stimulates the building of the stronghold on the first round. However, building on the first round with the help of one priest leads to the lack of power leech.

Their ability also does not give them an advantage, but only allows them to fully utilize their strength ability. But is too expensive.

Some ways to enhance, which seem to me correct:
1. make the SH cost fixed 1priest + 4c.
2. make the cost of ability = 1c.
3. make a dwelling income = 3pw.
4. make the current SH ability at the start.

Perhaps the simultaneous 3 + 4 will prove too strong, but one of them must be exactly.

Best regards


*upd. Accidentally deleted one character in the 3rd paragraph. correctly 3pw.
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bobral wrote:
1. make the SH cost fixed 1priest + 4c.
2. make the cost of ability = 1c.

I fully agree with these 2 ideas.
 
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Luke J
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Hmmm, so they start with 15c, 3w, and 0/11/1 power after their first income, not counting bonus tile? And 2 on air cult.

Wonder if it would be feasible to open with a dwelling rush. Bon4 gets you to 0/8/4 power, so that's 3 easy dwellings right there. Act3 and a 3pw-spade could get you two more dwellings on the original map with no leech. Then your income would be a somewhat-ridiculous 16pw. If you bought two power tokens at 2c each, you wouldn't even overflow (6/4/0 -> 0/0/10, not that it would be smart, but possible. More likely you'd just try to leech enough to avoid burning)

16pw could turn into a pretty crazy snowball once you scrape together your first temple, which has the added benefit of generating a priest that could be used as a worker, though an even better use might be sending it to air before the 2 air > w cult bonus

No one would ever build the sanctuary!

Sounds fun
 
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Pascal Amberg
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bokuteki wrote:
bobral wrote:
1. make the SH cost fixed 1priest + 4c.
2. make the cost of ability = 1c.

I fully agree with these 2 ideas.


Thanks for your ideas. I tested the Jedi myself once with version 3.0, then incorporated the two suggestions and then tested again (Version 3.1). I agree that they were a bit weak before and now, with the latest changes, this seems better.

Let me know any further feedback.
 
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