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Subject: 18xx Poker Chips - Feedback wanted rss

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Dave Breen
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I'm exploring the idea of creating a set of poker chips designed around the 18xx theme. What would your ideal chip look like, and what denominations would you like to see.

Based on my research so far, I was thinking this would be a good configuration for a 300 chip set:

50 x 1s (White)
50 x 5s (Red)
50 x 10s (Blue)
50 x 20s (Yellow or Gray)
50 x 100s (Black)
50 x 500s (Purple)

And here's a concept art image as a starting point:



My hope would be to make these available for sale if there is interest.

Any thoughts you have about the design, or the set configuration would be appreciated.

Dave
GameKnight

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TonyKR
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Shouldn't that say "In trains we trust"?

EDIT: And for those who aren't familiar with GameKnight chips, they're very very very nice. I so want a set of these.... (as well as to dig up some people here to use them with).
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Jason B
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Make them small, about the size of a quarter. Full-size chips weigh a ton and are a huge PITA to cart around.
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Brian Mayer
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Or, "In Rail we Trust"

Pugnax555 wrote:
Shouldn't that say "In trains we trust"?

EDIT: And for those who aren't familiar with GameKnight chips, they're very very very nice. I so want a set of these.... (as well as to dig up some people here to use them with).
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Tom
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I would put "18xx" on the chips.
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Brian Mayer
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I think 18xx on the chips might limit the market. There are train gamers who do not go as deep as 18xx but would still love train themed chips.
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Greg S
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No 2's? No 25's? Isn't 50 x 500's way too many? Is text that small going to be readable on a poker chip?

I like the border. I would get rid of the banner, the L stamp, the leaves. I would shrink the number and push it down to the bottom half, and increase the image size and make it balance the number as the top half of the chip.

I wouldn't put a handcar on the 100 ;-) On the 1, naturally.

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Rebus Carnival
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I am a fairly new 18xx player and have already amassed two full sets of poker chips. It would be hard for me to justify buying another set for aesthetics. I am already covetous of those Nile Club ceramics...

Not to say that I think this is a bad idea, but I wonder how much of the market is actually open for the product.
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Tyler
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I wouldn't use 2s, and 20s are much better than 25s for 18xx, but 50 x 500s is way more than you need (for the 18xx I play anyway). I'm not a fan of the "in games we trust"
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J C Lawrence
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A better ~300-count distribution for 18xx:

~300 count (put the overflow in a card-well in the chip case), recommended for all but the larger 18xx:

Count Value Total Sum Total
White 75 1 75 75
Red 73 5 365 440
Gray 78 20 1560 2000
Black 50 100 5000 7000
Purple 36 500 18000 25000
312


Also see my profile for suggested 100-chip and 1,000-chip distributions.

In that you're not discussing the mold and edgespot colouring, I suspect that you're looking at any one of the many bespoke ceramics. If so, you'll find that many consider them too slippery for boardgame use, most especially for the 18xx. See Poker chip recommendations for details.

Or are you looking at china clays or a custom run of ASMs/CPCs? We've been quietly talking about doing a custom run of ASMs for a quite a while now. Or perhaps a custom sticker on one of the readily available chips like Milanos, Majestics or similar?.
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Dave Breen
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@Jason - thanks for the suggestion - I have considered this. There would definitely be an investment involved in getting a smaller mold created. It's an interesting idea, I'm only concerned that the handling aspect would be a challenge with a smaller chip. The wonderful thing about 'regular' size chips is they are so easy to stack and manage. I've tried the miniature chips and they are ok for travel, but I don't think they are ideal for a home set.

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Dave Breen
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clearclaw wrote:
A better ~300-count distribution for 18xx:

~300 count (put the overflow in a card-well in the chip case), recommended for all but the larger 18xx:

Count Value Total Sum Total
White 75 1 75 75
Red 73 5 365 440
Gray 78 20 1560 2000
Black 50 100 5000 7000
Purple 36 500 18000 25000
312


Also see my profile for suggested 100-chip and 1,000-chip distributions.

In that you're not discussing the mold and edgespot colouring, I suspect that you're looking at any one of the many bespoke ceramics. If so, you'll find that many find them too slippery for boardgame use. See Poker chip recommendations for details.


Hi JC - thanks for the input - I like your distribution but would like to keep the chips to a 300 count which is I've found to be the most popular set size so I'd probably modify to keep counts in multiples of 25.

Yes - these would be ceramic - while opinions vary - I've never had a complaint about the chips being slippery and I've sold many sets.

I'll take a look at your 100\1000 set suggestions too.

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Michael Theiss
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Yellow is only for $1000
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Dave Breen
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Hi Michael,

I was wondering who would bring that up. It's funny there are many differing opinions on the color. In the past I've used gray for the 20, but sometimes it looks a bit too close to the blue on the 10. I'm definitely up for some lively debate as to what the right color choice should be for the $20. My thinking was that the 1000 chip would not be used in this set, so using the yellow for the 20 would create a nice easy to distinguish range of colors.

Since were in the concept stage - this is good input. Thanks for bringing this up.

Dave

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J C Lawrence
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dbreen27 wrote:
I like your distribution but would like to keep the chips to a 300 count which is I've found to be the most popular set size so I'd probably modify to keep counts in multiples of 25.


And of course chips come in rolls of 25. But that makes a far less than ideal distribution (painfully annoying) for 18xx games. As for hitting 300 chips exactly, if that's really a key concern, just drop a dozen purples (the final bank-size counts won't be as nice, but the set will function ~almost as well).

Quote:
Yes - these would be ceramic - while opinions vary - I've never had a complaint about the chips being slippery and I've sold many sets.


Perhaps because the people with those concerns don't buy ceramics in the first place?

Again, have a look at Poker chip recommendations.
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Dave Breen
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Qualm wrote:
No 2's? No 25's? Isn't 50 x 500's way too many? Is text that small going to be readable on a poker chip?

I like the border. I would get rid of the banner, the L stamp, the leaves. I would shrink the number and push it down to the bottom half, and increase the image size and make it balance the number as the top half of the chip.

I wouldn't put a handcar on the 100 ;-) On the 1, naturally.





Perhaps something more like this? I'm not sure it convey's the theme of currency tho, but worth exploring.
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Adam Brocker
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Would be very nice to include a case as well. Case can be very rudimentary (and light if possible) to keep the cost down.
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Tim Koppang
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I like the design, and especially the implication that a different piece of rolling stock might be on each denomination. In your mock-up, obviously the color is off (blue being for $10 chips). And as suggested above, the handcart makes most sense for the $1 chip.

I'm not a fan of the slogan "In games we trust" (a little too cheesy for my tastes), but I do appreciate the scroll and overall aesthetic of currency.

As for colors, I strongly prefer yellow for $20 (instead of grey), but I know there is some debate about this issue. I prefer the high contrast of yellow. As you say, $1,000 chips aren't in use and so there is no need to reserve the yellow color. Besides, colors are much less standard when you get to the higher denominations.

Someone suggested $25 chips instead of $20 chips. No way! $25 chips are vastly inferior for 18xx games (and really most board games generally).

The inclusion of $10 chips is interesting, and perhaps unnecessary. I recently converted my current set to use $20 chips instead of $25 chips. I had included $10 chips as a stop-gap, which I realize in retrospect was to make up for the annoying tendency of $25 chips to get in the way. Multiplies of 10 are strongly preferred. That said, now that I have $20 chips, I'm not sure the $10s are as useful. If I wanted another denomination, I might even prefer $50s. I'm still experimenting, but I need more experience to tell what's best.

I've never felt the need for $2 chips.

Full-size chips are best, and I think you lay out the reasons why perfectly.
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J C Lawrence
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tckoppang wrote:
As for colors, I strongly prefer yellow for $20 (instead of grey)...


We've had significant problems with yellow Majestics (used as 20s) being confused with whites (1s).



I use orange in my 1,000-count soprano set and so far have not had a problem with them:

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Tim Koppang
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I can see that. It really depends on the set, I suppose. In some the greys look dreadfully close to either the whites or the blues.
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Johan L
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Surely it should be 'Our trains will rust'? whistle
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Dave Breen
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Here's a bit more refined version..

of course the game knight watermark would not be in the final version.

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J C Lawrence
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Roughly the sort of thing I've been looking at in ASMs:



http://pokerchipdesigntool.com/?imp_sets=Y9QWCCTT

Still not entirely happy with that set, but its a direction and a handful of us have been talking about going in on an order.
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Shawn Fox
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Only slightly on topic, taking Benford's law into account, there is only a minor statistical gain on the number of chips needed for using $20 chips instead of $25 chips (approximately 2.5% fewer chips by my calculations).

Using $20 chips does decrease the number of chips needed for numbers between 20-24, 40-49, and 60-74 but it increases the number of chips needed for 25-39, 50-59, and 75-79. Both methods use the same number of chips between 80-99.

Note that I did use just an approximation for Benford's law, but I think it benefitted both the $20 and $25 methods roughly equally. I suspect an improved calculation would result in a slightly better advantage for using $20 chips than what I found with an approximation. In any case, I didn't see a big advantage for using $20 chips instead of $25.
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J C Lawrence
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You assume that the distribution of values in games is flat, which is not true in practice. In practice some values, and in particular multiples of 20, are more common than others in 18xx games.
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