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Subject: "I Listened to a Trump Supporter" rss

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Greg Michealson
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Drew1365 wrote:
I Listened to a Trump Supporter

Quote:

She told me that every week, it seemed there was another default letter, another foreclosure, another bank demanding more blood from her dry veins. To her, that pile of default notices and demands for payment looked suspiciously similar to Hillary Clinton’s top donor list.


Or, RSP, you could just mock her some more. I'm sure mockery will make her want to vote for Hillary.


Can we mock just that part? Because she seems to be pinning her woes on Clinton's donors, and by proxy, Clinton herself.

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Interesting article, but it isn't exactly moving -- what she dislikes from Clinton, Trump's policies are typically worse.

Excepting, perhaps, immigration reform wrt illegal workers. But any upcoming president will need to address that (not that they will.)
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I have a sense that this is from a fake news site. Their tag line is

Quote:
the same political rants you see on Facebook, but they’re well written.
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Odd how people seem to think that a man who has defaulted on debt multiple times is not part of then wall street problem rather then the solution.
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Jeff Brown
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I've listened to a lot of Trump supporters. I'm surrounded by them in the the fourth most conservative city in the country according to one ranking I saw. Many of my friends are voting for Trump. They are still good friends of mine. Most of my students are most likely Trump supporters. I see them as good, good people.

I'm well aware that most of Trump supporters aren't stupid or racist and when Hillary called 50% of them a basket of deplorables I winced at that. I was glad when she retracted the number.

I still think that Trump is stupid and racist and a demagogue. I also think that the reason why someone supports someone can be wide and varied and don't have to be for those reasons.

You also used to spew contempt for Trump all of the time, do you remember that far back?

The real question is whether or not you have listened to Hillary supporters. Do you understand them? How do you feel about lefties as you call them? Do you see them as people also. People who might really be good people?
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slatersteven wrote:
Odd how people seem to think that a man who has defaulted on debt multiple times is not part of then wall street problem rather then the solution.


Yeah. I don't think the person who has personally benefitted from corruption and bragged about it is really the corruption reformer we all need.

I have about as much faith in Clinton to do any meaningful corruption reform, but this narrative is rather silly.

"I've gamed the system for my own benefit. Help me rewrite the system!"

Really?
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Not exactly sure how any of that gets pinned on Clinton, a cabinet member of the administration that dug us out of a world depression, and the wife of the man that presided over the longest period of economic growth in our nation's history.

How was her business doing in the 90s?

Her plight isn't worthy of mockery. But her choice for president is perplexing if that's her fundamental motivation.

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I don't think anyone is insulting her, so much as commenting that a number of things she "knows to be true" are, in reality, factually false.

And that's frustrating.

I'm going to go ahead and steal a decent post from FB

Jim Wright wrote:
"If you file & don't owe you have paid your taxes. Trump didn't write tax law. Clinton types did."

This is true.

But it's not the whole truth.

And half the truth is very often a lie.

And THIS lie is now being repeated over and over among conservatives, ever since Trump's disastrous screw-up at the debate last week when he bragged not paying taxes makes him "smart."
Trump is correct, but that doesn't make him right.

If you file federal income taxes at the end of the fiscal year and you don't owe additional amounts then it IS possible you have paid sufficient federal taxes. That's how it is for many Americans of far lesser means that Donald Trump -- or Hillary Clinton for that matter. Many of us get a tax refund because we have in point of fact paid MORE than our share of federal taxes and after letting the government use that money free for much of the year, we get the excess back less the interest.

But that's NOT how it works for rich people like Donald Trump.
Rich people have access to options you and I don't. They get to hide their money away in tax shelters and overseas banks and "investments." And if they take a loss, as Trump did -- nearly a billion dollars -- then you and I get to pay them back for it. That's right, that big billion dollar loss Trump suffered? He gets to deduct that from his federal income taxes until it's paid off -- about 18 years, according to tax experts. What that means is during that time, you and I carry his load as Americans.

This is how rich people get rich and STAY rich, they never risk their own money. Ever. They risk yours and when they lose it, they get richer and you get the tab. Trump's risky and poorly managed investment into Atlantic City Casinos cost HIM nothing, even though he lost a billion dollars -- it cost YOU.

And THAT in a nutshell is the perfect metaphor for the Great Recession.
Wall Street Investment Bankers, like John Thain (who was the last CEO of Merrill Lynch), vaporized trillions in risky and poorly managed mortgage investments and when it all fell apart and plunged the world into economic chaos, well, YOU got stuck with the tab and Thain made MILLIONS. Literally millions. Despite destroying one of the oldest investment firms in the world, despite being personally one of the architects of a worldwide financial disaster, despite being responsible for the loss of literally millions of jobs and billions of dollars, Thain just got richer and suffered NO consequences whatsoever. None. He's still doing it today. Right now at CIT Group. None of the people responsible were ever held to account. Not a single one.

And YOU got stuck with the tab.

Just like you're getting stuck with Donald Trump's tab.
But, as the commenter said and as Mike Pence alluded to last night, "Trump didn't write tax law. Clinton types did."

This is true.

Well, sort of.

Actually, it's a bald faced lie, a convenient fiction we Americans tell ourselves instead of facing up to the fact that our democracy has been stolen by people like Donald Trump, John Thain, and the Koch Brothers.
In fact, those tax laws, and nearly all other laws, aren't written by legislators such as former Senator Clinton at all.

Those laws are written by think-tanks and lobbying groups. Outfits such as the American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC).
ALEC is an organization made up by and funded by conservatives: billionaires, bankers, businessmen, and politicians. Its mission statement says its goal is to "advance the fundamental principles of free-market enterprise, limited government, and federalism at the state level through a nonpartisan public-private partnership of America's state legislators, members of the private sector and the general public"
The "nonpartisan" part is another lie -- and a transparent one at that.
Guess who's a member?

“I’m deeply humbled. I know who you are. I know the example that you set. And, as Abraham Lincoln said, ‘my only ambition in life is to be esteemed by people I esteem.’ Such a great gathering of men and women who stand for common sense conservative principles in state houses across the country [...] I was for ALEC before it was cool!”
That was Mike Pence, addressing an ALEC gathering last August.
They aren't even trying to hide it, Pence's face and the entire text of his speech is available in a link from the front pages of ALEC's website.

THESE are the people who wrote that tax code. Not Hillary Clinton.

THESE are the people who spent millions of dollars lobbying for those tax laws in the halls of the Senate and the House. Ultimately, those millions came from YOU, since the people backing the ALEC lobbyists don't pay much in the way of federal taxes, some of them in fact pay none at all and GET A TAX REFUND. We are paying them, people like Mike Pence, to screw us -- poor and middle class liberals and conservatives alike.

Hillary Clinton meanwhile was a co-sponsor of laws like the Lily Ledbetter Fair Pay Act (which had a not a single Republican co-sponsor. Not one member of ALEC), the act was designed to prohibit rich people like Mike Pence and Donald Trump from increasing their own profit by underpaying female and minority employees. Clinton also voted for TARP -- which did indeed bail out Wall Street institutions which had caused the economic disaster and if not relieved would lead directly to even MORE massive economic destruction, but ALSO included amendments -- insisted on by Clinton -- which provided extensive tax relief to people like you and me and raised taxes on the wealthy. The law ALSO directly targeted people like John Thain, making it illegal for tax dollars to be used to fund his golden parachute and how many of you knew that? Clinton voted for the Housing Bill which provided energy tax credits to people like you and me and established the Homeowner Preservation Entity (HOPE) to save the homes of people screwed over by the wealthy investment bankers. That same bill also provided significant tax credits for first-time home buyers, provided protection against foreclosure, and increased deductions for property taxes for low income homeowners. Clinton voted repeatedly and vocally for increased funding for veterans, the homeless, the uninsured, and the hungry.

All of these things are a matter of public record if you only have the wherewithal to look -- while ALEC hides in the shadows pulling Mike Pence's strings, funded by billionaires SUCH AS DONALD TRUMP, unelected, and completely unaccountable to the American people.

So to suggest that Hillary Clinton is somehow responsible for Donald Trump not paying taxes is the very pinnacle of bullshit.

The worst lies are half the truth.

And that's something Mike Pence excels at.


(Some minor emphasis added by myself for the tl;dr types)
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Part of the problem is that a fair part of the news media is simply profit driven sensationalism. Dry economic analysis and proposed nuanced solutions aren't very sexy when compared with late night tweeting rants. We are left questioning how anyone could support someone so demonstrably lacking in empathy as Trump when we should be examining his actual policy stances.

The woman in the OP is like so many other Americans watching her slice of the American dream dwindle as jobs move overseas, wages remain flat and the majority of American wealth accrues in the minority of hands.

The question remains, once you pierce the news cycle storms, is whether Trump has grasped the nature of America's economic challenges and whether he is offering anything approaching an informed approach to those problems. So far all we have to go on is more political rhetoric.

I voted for Reagan's reelection in 1984. His messages of tax reform, breaking trade barriers, regulatory reform and building a strong national defense all resonated very strongly especially against Jimmy Carter's era which saw gasoline over a 1$ a barrel for the first time, double digit interest rates, high inflation and employment problems. Supply side economic stimulation was the order of the day.

We now have flat inflation, stagnated real wage growth, and a booming stock market and real estate market. American productivity has skyrocketed but those gains have been retained mostly at the top. What is Trumps solution? Reduce taxes, reduce or eliminate regulation, and rein in global trade?

The first two are simply more of the same. They utterly ignore demand side economics as the GOP has done for 30 years. If you want jobs domestically, you need to have a healthy domestic demand which means actual dollars in the hands of consumers. It is rather obvious that low income and lower middle class citizens spend virtually all of their earnings on goods and services so giving them jobs that actually pay a living wage will stimulate demand. Tax breaks on the wealthy guarantees nothing since there are many ways they can invest that create no American jobs at all.

As to the third pillar of Trumps economic agenda, taking on a protectionist anti-trade agenda will harm the economy as our exports dissipate and we grow less efficient since we will lack the stimulus of competition from overseas. Prices will rise and we'll be back to inflationary pressures that ruled when our overseas partners had stiffer trade barriers.

Trump is a successful businessman. Whatever you think of his personal scruples he has developed many properties. That makes him knowledgable about FINANCE. This is not a synonym for ECONOMICS. Negotiating development deals isn't the same as trade deals or security treaties.

Trump is tapping a deep vein of dissatisfaction. He hasn't actually demonstrated he knows how to address that dissatisfaction. That is what the coverage should be about. Not juvenile early AM tweets.
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Rulesjd wrote:

Trump is tapping a deep vein of dissatisfaction. He hasn't actually demonstrated he knows how to address that dissatisfaction. That is what the coverage should be about. Not juvenile early AM tweets.


This is the one part of the "Democrats are to blame for Trump!" meme that has a faint echo of truth. They aren't DIRECTLY responsible for him, of course - they're not the party that nominated and endorsed him - but their inability to truly help working people over the last several decades did leave a lane open for a demagogue like Trump to drive on.

The Republican party is pretty open about their endorsement of corporate hegemony, so you can't really blame them for not helping the little guys. But the Democrats are supposed to be supporting the blue-collar types and working families, and they just haven't done enough. Maybe they're incompetent, maybe they were outfoxed, or maybe they actually don't give a shit. Maybe some blend of the three. But whatever the reason is, they done fucked up.
 
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Bojan Ramadanovic
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I have nothing against that lady. I am sure she is perfectly nice, perfectly reasonable person without any malice in her.

That said, the article could have well been entitled "Victim of economic misfortune falls for a dangerous demagogue" and it could have as easily been written in 1931 Germany or 1945 Argentina or Venezuela in 1998 or - for that matter - Yugoslavia in 1990.

I personally know perfectly nice old ladies who supported Milošević (guy principally responsible for war and genocide in ex-Yu) on the basis of "at least he is different and tells it like it is". I am sure there was a plenty of similarly decent but hard done by folks who vinced a bit at his most outrageous statements but figured that Herr Hitler is at least different from the folks who presided over the misery of 1920ies depression. Some of them may have also remembered a few Jewish names on the papers by which some of their nice cars or houses were repossessed.

None of this is to say that Trump is Hitler or Milošević or Chavez - it is just to say that people who feel hard drive by economically (and culturally) are easy pray for the kind of demagogues that are not only extremely unlikely to help them, but are in fact extremely likely to bring whole new kinds of problems and suffering.

It is political equivalent of people responding to, say, a divorce or another kind of setback - by burning the house down. Their pain is indisputable but their response is still indefensible.

Banking crises, recessions and even depressions are as old as capitalism. Good policy can reduce their frequency a bit and bad policy can increase it - but it is height of hubris - socialist hubris specifically - to think that government can somehow 'cancel' them - or shield 'common people' from their effects.
What happened to this lady is a personal tragedy, but it is a sort of tragedy that could have as easily happened under Eisenhower or Lincoln or Madison as under Bush or a Clinton. What is more - basic system that enabled this tragedy is the same system that enabled her to build her business in the first place. It is a system that enables huge wealth creation even if - in specific individual cases it can lead to wealth destruction. Hilary Clinton - for all her faults - is an exponent of that system,and that system, for all its faults, is by far the best one we got. Trump offers a promise of changing that system into something else - where there is no downside and people can only gain but not lose. As appealing as that may be to people who have experienced loss recently, every previous attempt in that direction was a disastrous failure.
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That woman's comments are further proof (as if it was really needed, see Brexit for another recent example) that many (most?) voters make their choice based on emotion rather than logic. Because there is little logic to what she said there.
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wifwendell wrote:
That woman's comments are further proof (as if it was really needed, see Brexit for another recent example) that many (most?) voters make their choice based on emotion rather than logic. Because there is little logic to what she said there.


Someone should really grab her by the pussy and straighten her out. I've heard it's super effective.
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eaglebeak wrote:
Rulesjd wrote:

Trump is tapping a deep vein of dissatisfaction. He hasn't actually demonstrated he knows how to address that dissatisfaction. That is what the coverage should be about. Not juvenile early AM tweets.


This is the one part of the "Democrats are to blame for Trump!" meme that has a faint echo of truth. They aren't DIRECTLY responsible for him, of course - they're not the party that nominated and endorsed him - but their inability to truly help working people over the last several decades did leave a lane open for a demagogue like Trump to drive on.

The Republican party is pretty open about their endorsement of corporate hegemony, so you can't really blame them for not helping the little guys. But the Democrats are supposed to be supporting the blue-collar types and working families, and they just haven't done enough. Maybe they're incompetent, maybe they were outfoxed, or maybe they actually don't give a shit. Maybe some blend of the three. But whatever the reason is, they done fucked up.


Not really true. Consider Sweden or Denmark etc... their left wing parties have done everything - to the limit of economic viability and beyond - to help the poor (blue collar and otherwise) but that does not change the fact that economies (and cultural phenomena) have their ups and downs and that people who lose one cycle will feel disenfranchised. Swedes and Danes have as many right wing populists per population as US does if not more.

If you consider this example - do you think this hard working lady (who would have always thought of herself as business woman rather then 'blue collar) would be any less angry if having lost her business she got a bit more generous welfare package?
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bramadan wrote:


If you consider this example - do you think this hard working lady (who would have always thought of herself as business woman rather then 'blue collar) would be any less angry if having lost her business she got a bit more generous welfare package?


I can't say; I don't know the woman. Most people tend to feel better with more money as opposed to less. Still going to be a bitter pill, but a little extra sugar coating couldn't hurt.
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wifwendell wrote:
That woman's comments are further proof (as if it was really needed, see Brexit for another recent example) that many (most?) voters make their choice based on emotion rather than logic. Because there is little logic to what she said there.
Let's 'extrapolate' some, now, Women tend with voting for someone of WHOM they would "sleep with", and her most unlikely being a Lesbian, then, what other choice were there? What does it matter of these that they HAD "no chance", since, they JUST 'fantasize' such accordingly. whistle
 
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wifwendell wrote:
That woman's comments are further proof (as if it was really needed, see Brexit for another recent example) that many (most?) voters make their choice based on emotion rather than logic. Because there is little logic to what she said there.

Yeah, it is stunning how many people still think Brexit is a bad idea. If they understand basic economics instead of being so afraid of change they would see that it is the only obvious choice.
 
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Drew1365 wrote:
Or, RSP, you could just mock her some more. I'm sure mockery will make her want to vote for Hillary.

Fortunately her vote doesn't matter as there are enough other people to keep Trump out of office. I'm happy to mock her (assuming she actually exists), of course.

She got into a business that she didn't understand and it blew up in her face. This was completely predictable, of course, by anyone who knew anything about the real estate market. Real estate is notorious for being boom/bust. If you are going to go into a business which is heavily reliant on the real estate market you had better make sure to limit your debt and/or compartmentalize it so that when (not if) the market goes bad it won't take you down with it.

Further proof of her incompetency is her incorrect evaluation that Trump will help her more than Clinton. Just more confirmation of how stupid the average voter is in the US. Although to be clear, she doesn't seem to be a bad person, just a dumb one.
 
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sfox wrote:
Drew1365 wrote:
Or, RSP, you could just mock her some more. I'm sure mockery will make her want to vote for Hillary.

Fortunately her vote doesn't matter as there are enough other people to keep Trump out of office. I'm happy to mock her (assuming she actually exists), of course.

She got into a business that she didn't understand and it blew up in her face. This was completely predictable, of course, by anyone who knew anything about the real estate market. Real estate is notorious for being boom/bust. If you are going to go into a business which is heavily reliant on the real estate market you had better make sure to limit your debt and/or compartmentalize it so that when (not if) the market goes bad it won't take you down with it.

Further proof of her incompetency is her incorrect evaluation that Trump will help her more than Clinton. Just more confirmation of how stupid the average voter is in the US. Although to be clear, she doesn't seem to be a bad person, just a dumb one.


Yeah; I'm more prone to mock the wildly unreliable source.

It's not even "legit".
 
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Drew1365 wrote:
I'm sure mockery will make her want to vote for Hillary.


What would? What sort of outreach would you suggest? I see you carp about how liberals condescend and the like. How should we treat a woman like this? Here's someone we're assured isn't racist, yet who takes the "basket of deplorables" comment to be about her, despite the fact that Clinton explained what she meant in the rest of the quote. She ignored Sanders' platform, and Clinton's adoption of it, because Clinton took money from Wall Street (which has also donated heavily to Trump--turns out that both small business owners and political candidates get their money from people with money).

So, how do you say to someone that she chose to make herself especially vulnerable to risks which harmed all of us, and borrowed heavily to finance her lifestyle? Can we communicate that she had control over this while also acknowledging that lots of people are unwilling to consider potential catastrophes? That our emotions often lead us to choose media which forecasts either doom or eternal growth, and that these tendencies reinforce our biases rather than helping to control them? Is there any way for us to tell people they messed up, but that we understand and are trying to help them put their lives back together by ameliorating some of the worst ways people get screwed (notably, massive, unexpected health care costs and predatory for-profit educational institutions which load their students with debt, LIKE THE ONE RUN BY TRUMP)? We understand that won't restore their dreams of perpetual success, but we're hoping for a more realistic approach in the future? Most of all, that no matter how well government does its job, bad things will still happen, and it's still your responsibility to make progress in your own life?

Because that seems to me like the message I want to send to those who have personally suffered under the Obama administration (though this is apparently a minority of Trump supporters, anyway). It absolutely is tough to hear, I admit. It takes an adult to listen to someone tell them that the resentment they feel at others is partly misdirected, and that much of the responsibility for their woes is their own. It hurts to accept that others can do only a little to prevent such misfortune in the future.

tl;drHow do you tell someone to grow up without mockery? Because that's what it seems to me like the Trump supporters who are voting out of economic resentment need to do. I thought perhaps if I listened to them I could see some real grievances, but it just sounds more like they're refusing to take responsibility for supporting policies which would improve things in any way.
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