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Millennium Blades» Forums » Variants

Subject: Will it break if we ignore the no-takebacks rule during tournaments? rss

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Reverend Redd
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Millennium Blades is my new favorite boardgame, despite only having played it twice, and is quickly growing on others in my gaming group. But we have THAT ONE GUY who won't play it again because he's a wus he doesn't like the "no-takebacks" rule. This pretty much screws all the rest of us, yet we don't want to say, "up yours, we're playing MB and you can just watch and do nothing for two hours," either.

Typically, we don't mind players fixing "oopses" in our group, on the basis that: 1. You didn't learn something after the fact (card drawn, info revealed) that showed you why it was a bad move; and 2. Someone else didn't start taking their turn yet, which could affect what THEY do, or made you react to seeing what they want to do. You know, common sense stuff - the fine line between fixing an honest mistake and permitting cheating.

That said, we all understand why you can't fix mistakes in the Deckbuilding phase of MB - it's real-time, nobody can un-see things they saw you do. And though the spirit of the rule is to simulate CCG tournaments by disallowing error-fixing then, too, is there anything in the game that is dependent on this rule [during the Tournament Phase] for balance? Can we safely house-rule it out of existence, or will that break the game?

EDIT - I am referring to the Tourney phase here. We do NOT want this rule suspended during Deckbuilding, just Tourney phases.
 
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Michael
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I take it on a case by case basis. I've only played with my wife. Sow times it works to take back and re-do things, and other times it doesn't. Sometimes she doesn't realize a certain deckbuiling phase has ended and wanted to do something, or she needs another minute or two. I'm content to accommodate these things because it makes the game more fun and relaxed.

If a player were trying to use this flexibility to their advantage, that would b a different story. I don't think anyone can tell you what's right and wrong here. In millennium blades, mistakes DO happen, and the unexpected happens. Some of his is the point of the game, and other times I think one can be lenient in the spirit of all the players having a more fm experience.
 
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Nathaniel Chambers
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If your friend has seen the card, then I would think that breaks the game. A solution might be to deal all the cards face up, thy way everyone has equal opportunity to have take backs. You could play galaxy tucker style where you don't have to keep the card you took until you take the next card. But that changes the game a ton. You might be better off playing the turn based variant.
 
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Reverend Redd
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I apologize that I was unclear. I just meant suspending the "no mistakes" rule during Tournament phases, when turns are the norm. We do not intend on working around Deckbuilding. Would suspending it during "Tourney" phases break the game?
 
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Ian Toltz
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I view that rule as important because there are so many different effects out there and part of the game is keeping that all in your head and not falling into traps. For example, Nutjob

Nutjob wrote:
Top: Whenever another players plays a 7 or 8 STAR card, flip that card and this card, then gain 18 RP (play effects still occur).

Score: Gain 15 RP.


This card would be neutered if someone could take back their play after realizing that it would trigger Nutjob.

The game has a huge cognitive load. That's just part of the game. You're not expected to be able to keep everything in your head, and mistakes are expected.
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Reverend Redd
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That's another place where we naturally draw lines - in that kind of situation, we'd consider it gaining new information. But I see why you'd consider it open to inviting problems in this way - it's a blurry line we'd be crossing there.
 
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Christian K
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That is not really a problem with allowing take backs in the tournament (we allow it if you have not gained any new information).
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Titus M
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I would suggest allowing this other player to play their way, even if the rest of you are committed to the stated rules. Usually the player that can't just accept their mistake and move on isn't going to notice if you and everyone else roll your collective eyes and just agree that "this guy's going to play with a handicap and we're all going to entertain it for the Greater Fun." The game is so good, I think it's a much better deal to just let the other dude do their thing while you all play as per usual.

Closer to your actual question, no, I think take-backs are much more important during the deck building phase, and allowing such corrections are fine enough during the tourney phase. It only breaks the spirit of the game.
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Brad Talton
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The main reason that we put in the 'no takebacks' rule is that playing Millennium Blades optimally with full information might double the play time of the tournaments. Use your own discretion, but if the game seems to drag on and on, consider re-implementing the no takebacks rule.
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Kevin Jonas

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Kyokai wrote:
The main reason that we put in the 'no takebacks' rule is that playing Millennium Blades optimally with full information might double the play time of the tournaments. Use your own discretion, but if the game seems to drag on and on, consider re-implementing the no takebacks rule.

It's a double edged sword. It really depends on how a person thinks. This rule can slow the game down also. Since players know there is no take back they can take longer making a choice of a card to play to make sure they don't make a mistake. Especially if someone ruined their combo with a flip and now have to rethink the best order to play their cards. I had that happen last night. New player, he made a mistake on the tournament. Then every time after that he double checked everything.
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Ian Toltz
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Definitely a possiblity. This game has huge potential for analysis paralysis. I wouldn't play it with people who you don't know for a fact are willing to make a good, fast play as opposed to analyzing the situation to try for the best play every time.
 
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Reverend Redd
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sirpoonga wrote:
Kyokai wrote:
The main reason that we put in the 'no takebacks' rule is that playing Millennium Blades optimally with full information might double the play time of the tournaments. Use your own discretion, but if the game seems to drag on and on, consider re-implementing the no takebacks rule.

It's a double edged sword. It really depends on how a person thinks. This rule can slow the game down also. Since players know there is no take back they can take longer making a choice of a card to play to make sure they don't make a mistake. Especially if someone ruined their combo with a flip and now have to rethink the best order to play their cards. I had that happen last night. New player, he made a mistake on the tournament. Then every time after that he double checked everything.


This reminds me of the reason takebacks are specifically allowed in the rules of the Mage Knight Board Game. The rulebook says it helps keep long games from dragging on even longer - by allowing players to just lay out their turn and min-max as they see opportunities develop, they can use their time more efficiently with less second-guessing and error-checking. And Millennium Blades tournaments can get pretty lengthy, despite that all you really do is choose and play one card six times. It's a big choice to make each time.
 
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