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Subject: 'Pussy-gate' and the banality of misogyny rss

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Professor of Pain
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Why Donald Trump and Billy Bush’s leaked conversation is so awful
Alexandra Petri wrote:
It must be nice to have a magical room where you can go, drop your pants and pretend for a few glorious hours that women are not people.

A repellent, but remarkably unexamined, idea that we carry around in society with us is the notion that somehow this is okay. That this is just boys being boys. That we must give boys a safe, unpolluted, secret space where they can stop the exhausting charade of acting as though women contain the same internal worlds that they do themselves.

This is what it gets back to: the idea that men are people, and women are just women.

Of course what Donald Trump said is awful. But, as Kelly Oxford noted on Twitter, it’s the fact that Billy Bush just nodded along that gives us rape culture.

It’s the idea that boys will be boys, and it does not matter what you leave in your wake, because you are the protagonist of this story, and the girl is just ... an appealing body, to be discussed and dissected at leisure when you are back in one of the myriad locker rooms of daily life. If that.

Trump's non-apology and his failure to really own this thing in last night's debate just reinforces his misogyny. What a role model for young men!
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fightcitymayor
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Elfbane wrote:
What a role model for young men!
And typically I'm not a "WON'T SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN?!" type moral scold, but when Billy Twelve-Year-Old tells his parents "Yeah, mom, I grabbed her pussy! It's no big deal, the guy you're voting for said he did it all the time!" how does a Trump-voting parent reconcile that?
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Michael Carter
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I love the sexism that thinks women don't have vulgar conversations also.
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Mac Mcleod
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mlcarter815 wrote:
I love the sexism that thinks women don't have vulgar conversations also.


http://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-words-echo-womans-alleg... "Jill Harth, a pageant owner trying to work with Trump in the mid-1990s, filed suit against him in federal court in Manhattan in 1997 describing a “relentless” campaign of sexual harassment and assault including an incident in which he reached under a table, put his hands on her thighs and grabbed her “intimate private parts” during a meeting at a New York restaurant."

I've seen at least two more such allegations against him. I'm sure the number must be in the dozens.

How can any woman vote for this man with a history of being sued for sexual assault and was still bragging about it (and probably doing it) 8 years later?


There's a difference between
"Man he's/she's so hot- I'd fuck him/her."

and

"I'm a celebrity so I can grab women's pussies and get away with it."
(And look! I've got suits in federal courts to prove I actually do it!"

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Mac Mcleod
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mlcarter815 wrote:
I love the sexism that thinks women don't have vulgar conversations also.


http://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-words-echo-womans-alleg...
Quote:
"Jill Harth, a pageant owner trying to work with Trump in the mid-1990s, filed suit against him in federal court in Manhattan in 1997 describing a “relentless” campaign of sexual harassment and assault including an incident in which he reached under a table, put his hands on her thighs and grabbed her “intimate private parts” during a meeting at a New York restaurant."


I've seen at least two more such allegations against him. I'm sure the number must be in the dozens.

How can any woman vote for this man with a history of being sued for sexual assault and was still bragging about it (and probably doing it) 8 years later?

Difference between

He/she is hot and I'd fuck him/her.

And

I'm a celebrity so I can grope guys/girls on the crotch and get away with it. And I've been previously sued in federal court for doing it so I'm not just talking shit!

(I've been groped by women twice at concerts. As a tall guy, I found it flattering and it wasn't scary. My impression is most females would be creeped out and afraid and it would ruin their evening.)
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mlcarter815 wrote:
I love the sexism that thinks women don't have vulgar conversations also.


Women DO have vulgar conversations.

Trump's conversation was describing sexual assaults. That was a conversation describing criminal acts, using some vulgar words.
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jeremy cobert
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Are BJ's from interns still on the table ?

The fake outrage from you nutters is only mildly amusing.
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jeremycobert wrote:
Are BJ's from interns still on the table ?

The fake outrage from you nutters is only mildly amusing.


Ah I see the basic flaw in your "logic". Strangely enough, the rest of us do not share you attitude of not giving a shit about women. Hence you fail to realize that the outrage is real.

And by the way, do you have an example where either Bill or Hillary gave the thumbs up to sexually objectifying Chelsea, like The Donald did to Ivanka?

“By the way, your daughter,” Stern said to Trump.

“She’s beautiful,” the brash businessman responded.

“Can I say this? A piece of ass,” Stern asked.

“Yeah,” Trump replied.



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/donald-trump-ivanka-ass_...

Second flaw is that contrary to your belief,adding "nutters" to idiocy, does not make it pearls of wisdom
 
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jeremycobert wrote:
Are BJ's from interns still on the table ?

The fake outrage from you nutters is only mildly amusing.


So bragging about sexually assaulting a woman is equivalent to consensual sexual activity between adults?

I'm disturbed by the fact that so many people defending Trump somehow can't see that this isn't about sex, it's not about vulgar language, but is about an admission of having committed criminal sexual assaults on women without their consent. If there was audio footage of Bill Clinton actually admitting to rape, you can bet your britches he'd be condemned (and prosecuted) by both left and right.

Not surprisingly, these Trump defenders are many of the same people whom we've seen in other threads defending men accused of rape. Gee, I wonder what the correlation is... (And I totally agree, btw, that Billy Bush's actions were as despicable, especially when they get off the bus and he asks her to hug Donald after what Trump just said).
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fightcitymayor wrote:
Elfbane wrote:
What a role model for young men!
And typically I'm not a "WON'T SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN?!" type moral scold, but when Billy Twelve-Year-Old tells his parents "Yeah, mom, I grabbed her pussy! It's no big deal, the guy you're voting for said he did it all the time!" how does a Trump-voting parent reconcile that?


That sounds exactly like what I heard in the mid-90s when we were instructed by Democrats that oral sex isn't sex (as a way of insisting that Bill Clinton didn't have sex with "that woman, Ms. Lewinsky.") You're probably too young to remember this, but at the time, the challenge was "So now teenage boys across the land will talk girls into oral sex, convinced by the President himself that it isn't actually sex."

Remember, Democrats defended this. "Yeah, Mom! I gave him a blow job! It's no big deal. The guy you voted for said it wasn't really sex."

How did Clinton-voting parents reconcile that?

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Michael Carter
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Wendell's and Mac's replies are only tangentially related to the OP.
 
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Eddy Richards
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Personally I didn't think the BJs from the intern were ok either. Firstly it was infidelity to his wife, and I think honesty and loyalty are important. Secondly, although it was consensual, Bill Clinton was clearly in a position of power to Monica Lewinsky, and should not have taken advantage of her. However, they were both adults and although scummy his acts weren't illegal. I suspect that if he had done anything similar before either election then the Republicans would have made a great deal of noise about it (family values etc). It's quite funny that at the time Donald Trump defended Clinton. And if Clinton said worse to Trump on the golf course, then shame on both of them.

However it isn't Bill Clinton who's running for president, so at best this is tangentially relevant.

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Drew1365 wrote:
fightcitymayor wrote:
Elfbane wrote:
What a role model for young men!
And typically I'm not a "WON'T SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN?!" type moral scold, but when Billy Twelve-Year-Old tells his parents "Yeah, mom, I grabbed her pussy! It's no big deal, the guy you're voting for said he did it all the time!" how does a Trump-voting parent reconcile that?


That sounds exactly like what I heard in the mid-90s when we were instructed by Democrats that oral sex isn't sex (as a way of insisting that Bill Clinton didn't have sex with "that woman, Ms. Lewinsky.") You're probably too young to remember this, but at the time, the challenge was "So now teenage boys across the land will talk girls into oral sex, convinced by the President himself that it isn't actually sex."

Remember, Democrats defended this. "Yeah, Mom! I gave him a blow job! It's no big deal. The guy you voted for said it wasn't really sex."

How did Clinton-voting parents reconcile that?



Actually more like how do Trump voting parents justify voting for a man who said it was ok to sexually objectify his own daughter Ivanka

“By the way, your daughter,” Stern said to Trump.

“She’s beautiful,” the brash businessman responded.

“Can I say this? A piece of ass,” Stern asked.

“Yeah,” Trump replied.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/donald-trump-ivanka-ass_...

And a the other poster pointed out, one is consensual sex, the Donald was talking about sexual assault.

By why let facts get in the way.
 
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mlcarter815 wrote:
I love the sexism that thinks women don't have vulgar conversations also.


People who think this is about vulgar remarks are missing the point completely.
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Calm down, guys. He's not a Muslim or Mexican so it's ok for him to grope women whenever he feels like it.
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Drew
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oldsin wrote:
Calm down, guys. He's not a Muslim or Mexican so it's ok for him to grope women whenever he feels like it.


Beat up that straw man! Beat him!
 
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Drew1365 wrote:
oldsin wrote:
Calm down, guys. He's not a Muslim or Mexican so it's ok for him to grope women whenever he feels like it.


Beat up that straw man! Beat him!


Cobert and Ferretface both need to be slapped silly with that straw man. You probably as well but I am not sure, so I won't include you.
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Thanks for the rent-free space in your head. Would have been nice if you'd cleaned it up a bit before you rented it out, though.
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Ed_the_Red wrote:
Personally I didn't think the BJs from the intern were ok either. Firstly it was infidelity to his wife, and I think honesty and loyalty are important. Secondly, although it was consensual, Bill Clinton was clearly in a position of power to Monica Lewinsky, and should not have taken advantage of her. However, they were both adults and although scummy his acts weren't illegal. I suspect that if he had done anything similar before either election then the Republicans would have made a great deal of noise about it (family values etc). It's quite funny that at the time Donald Trump defended Clinton. And if Clinton said worse to Trump on the golf course, then shame on both of them.

However it isn't Bill Clinton who's running for president, so at best this is tangentially relevant.



It's relevant in that it reveals that the left's outrage about Trump's comments are just ginned-up fakery.

The left revels in sexual deviancy. Suddenly they're worried about such coarsening of the culture? I welcome their newfound concern. May it continue.
 
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Shampoo4you wrote:
mlcarter815 wrote:
I love the sexism that thinks women don't have vulgar conversations also.


People who think this is about vulgar remarks are missing the point completely.


I'm not sure how anyone can read the OP and not see that it is commentary on vulgar locker room talk that apparently only men partake in. The OP was only using the Trump recording as an example.
 
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Drew1365 wrote:
Remember, Democrats defended this. "Yeah, Mom! I gave him a blow job! It's no big deal. The guy you voted for said it wasn't really sex."

How did Clinton-voting parents reconcile that?


by not caring about it? because teens are gonna do stuff anyway so honestly, oral is better because it's safer?

also by remembering that the reason they were talking about it is because stupid hypocritical conservatives were desperate to turn what was basically a non-issue into the worst thing of all time

there was a sort of pattern that arose out of it
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mlcarter815 wrote:
I love the sexism that thinks women don't have vulgar conversations also.

Case in point.
 
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Drew1365 wrote:
Ed_the_Red wrote:
Personally I didn't think the BJs from the intern were ok either. Firstly it was infidelity to his wife, and I think honesty and loyalty are important. Secondly, although it was consensual, Bill Clinton was clearly in a position of power to Monica Lewinsky, and should not have taken advantage of her. However, they were both adults and although scummy his acts weren't illegal. I suspect that if he had done anything similar before either election then the Republicans would have made a great deal of noise about it (family values etc). It's quite funny that at the time Donald Trump defended Clinton. And if Clinton said worse to Trump on the golf course, then shame on both of them.

However it isn't Bill Clinton who's running for president, so at best this is tangentially relevant.



It's relevant in that it reveals that the left's outrage about Trump's comments are just ginned-up fakery.

The left revels in sexual deviancy. Suddenly they're worried about such coarsening of the culture? I welcome their newfound concern. May it continue.


What sexual deviancy is being revelled in? I genuinely don't understand what point you're making.

The left (not a monolithic block, but let's run with it) has generally been at the forefront of opposing sexism. If Conservatives are less coarse (and I don't think that there is significant evidence of this) then it is because they prefer things to stay as they are, with women in their place, not disturbing the order of things with men at the top. And with their true attitudes showing in private, hypocritically laughed off as locker room talk, boys will be boys etc. If the left prefers things in the open then I say that's an improvement.
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jeremycobert wrote:
Are BJ's from interns still on the table ?



I don't know what shitty porn you've been watching but they are usually under the table.
 
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Drew1365 wrote:
Ed_the_Red wrote:
Personally I didn't think the BJs from the intern were ok either. Firstly it was infidelity to his wife, and I think honesty and loyalty are important. Secondly, although it was consensual, Bill Clinton was clearly in a position of power to Monica Lewinsky, and should not have taken advantage of her. However, they were both adults and although scummy his acts weren't illegal. I suspect that if he had done anything similar before either election then the Republicans would have made a great deal of noise about it (family values etc). It's quite funny that at the time Donald Trump defended Clinton. And if Clinton said worse to Trump on the golf course, then shame on both of them.

However it isn't Bill Clinton who's running for president, so at best this is tangentially relevant.



It's relevant in that it reveals that the left's outrage about Trump's comments are just ginned-up fakery.

The left revels in sexual deviancy. Suddenly they're worried about such coarsening of the culture? I welcome their newfound concern. May it continue.


Yes, ginned up fakery. Almost as truthful as someone describing you as bright.
 
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Drew1365 wrote:
fightcitymayor wrote:
Elfbane wrote:
What a role model for young men!
And typically I'm not a "WON'T SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN?!" type moral scold, but when Billy Twelve-Year-Old tells his parents "Yeah, mom, I grabbed her pussy! It's no big deal, the guy you're voting for said he did it all the time!" how does a Trump-voting parent reconcile that?


That sounds exactly like what I heard in the mid-90s when we were instructed by Democrats that oral sex isn't sex (as a way of insisting that Bill Clinton didn't have sex with "that woman, Ms. Lewinsky.") You're probably too young to remember this, but at the time, the challenge was "So now teenage boys across the land will talk girls into oral sex, convinced by the President himself that it isn't actually sex."

Remember, Democrats defended this. "Yeah, Mom! I gave him a blow job! It's no big deal. The guy you voted for said it wasn't really sex."

How did Clinton-voting parents reconcile that?

I guess the same way that Gingrich-voting parents reconciled what Newt Gingrich had said three years earlier:



"I did not have sexual relations with those women." -- House Speaker Newt Gingrich to Vanity Fair magazine in reply to charges in 1995 that he had solicited and received *oral sex* from a half-dozen former female campaign staffers of his




"We had oral sex. He [Newt Gingrich] prefers that modus operandi because then he can say, 'I never slept with her.'" -- Anne Manning, one of a half-dozen former Gingrich campaign workers, talking about Newt's oral sexcapades in a 1995 Vanity Fair magazine interview


Moreover, *Newt Gingrich* was the FIRST Congressman to deny having had "sexual relations" with a half-dozen former female campaign staffers who said they had performed oral sex on him at HIS solicitation and that he himself "did not consider oral sex to consitute adultry or sexual relations."

And yet, it was Newt Gingrich who nonetheless led the Republicans to make the Clinton/Lewinsky scandal the focus of the GOP's November 1998 Election Day strategy. And, of course, it was Newt Gingrich who was ousted after the strategy led to Republicans' losing seats in Congress.

From 1993 to 1999, even while he served as House Speaker and fomented the shutdown of the government and Bill Clinton's impeachment, Newt Gingrich had been all the while carrying on a clandestine affair with a congressional aide.


> Excerpt from by the commentary by David Corn in the August 12, 1999 edition of the Nation Online:

The Big One That Got Away


In May 1999, Newt Gingrich informed Marianne, his second wife of 18 years, that he was divorcing her for another woman, Callista Bisek. But one pal said Gingrich had told Marianne that he’d been seeing Bisek "for only a year", not the 5-1/2 years -- since November 1993 -- that he'd actually been seeing Bisek. It wasn't until around March 1999 that rumors about "Newtie's Cutie" were confirmed when he and Callista were photographed wallking hand-in-hand in broad daylight out on the Washington, D.C. mall.

Washington, D.C. -- These days, Newt Gingrich may be little more than a political has-been whose policy pronouncements barely register in the press, but his sex life, apparently, still can make headlines.

Five years ago, I chased the story that Speaker Newt "Family Values" Gingrich was messing around with a young Capitol Hill staffer, but I just couldn't pin it down. Now the tabloids have "outed" him.

After learning that the Star magazine would publish an article on the alleged extramarital affair between the former House speaker and a congressional aide named Calista Bisek, the New York Post and the New York Daily News both rushed out breathless stories on the supposed tryst -- which Gingrich and Bisek would neither confirm nor deny.

"Newt's Fooling Around with His Girl on the Hill," shouted the Post headline.

The Daily News Web site polled readers: "Do you think Newt Gingrich is a hypocrite?"

Short answer: Of course. This is a guy who gained the speakership of the House of Representatives by posing as a champion of family values.

Remember how Gingrich repeatedly referred to liberals and Democrats as "deviants" and "miscreants"?

And, later, how he gleefully tried to exploit Monicagate?

Well, Gingrich, the advocate of families, informed his first wife he was divorcing her when she was ill with cancer. Now, he is divorcing his second wife, Marianne, and a tabloid will soon publish a picture of him holding hands with his much-younger girlfriend.

As far as inveterate Newt-watchers are concerned, however, the Gingrich-Bisek story is old news. For years, word of this relationship was commonplace on the Hill. It was one of those "everybody-knows-it" stories that seem to float endlessly around Washington.

Unfortunately, such stories can be the most difficult to prove. I should know, for I tried to prove this one back in 1994.

It was the time of Gingrich's ascendance to power. After years as a back bencher, he had led the Republicans to a historic election victory that wrested control of the House from the Democrats for the first time in four decades. Newt was riding high and talking the family values talk.

Democratic aides on Capitol Hill, who long had traded in gossip about Gingrich's extramarital recreations, were beside themselves with anger. From such sources, I received a number of leads and tales. My favorite was from an aide who swore she had once spotted Gingrich's pale-green Mustang bouncing up and down in an underground House parking garage, with the windows all fogged up -- signs that not-so-conservative behavior may have been occurring within.

The aide said she had tried to peer through the condensation to determine with whom Gingrich was rocking and rolling, but that she just couldn't get a clear-enough view.

After all, it could have been his wife.

In any event, the most prevalent rumor concerned the supposed relationship between Gingrich and Bisek, 23 years his junior. A close friend of mine told me that Bisek had talked openly to a co-worker about her affair with Newt. But the co-worker turned out to be a loyal Republican who would not talk to me.

Hill aides further reported that Bisek and Gingrich routinely had breakfast together at the Supreme Court cafeteria. That seemed plausible enough, since Gingrich's Capitol Hill apartment was right across the street from the Court, in the same , in fact, as my office.

Chasing after any politician's personal life raised awkward questions for me -- this was before Monicagate -- but it seemed justified in this case if the leading family-values campaigner was in fact nothing more than a rank hypocrite.

But how do you prove a sexual affair between two adults?

Reporters cannot subpoena dresses and compel DNA submissions. Even if you catch sight of the two together -- say, at breakfast in the Supreme Court cafeteria -- what is that supposed to mean?

As I pondered how to proceed, I was contacted by the producer of a tabloid television show who had heard what I was up to; he offered to set up a stakeout in front of Gingrich's apartment. For a week, the show's staff watched for Bisek coming or going, especially at odd times like late at night and early in the morning.

Yet there was no sign of her. My guess at the time was that Gingrich, just weeks away from being handed the speaker's gavel, realized he was under intense scrutiny, and may therefore have been acting with more caution than previously had seemed necessary to him.

The show's correspondent finally managed to obtain some video footage of Bisek as she left her own condominium in northern Virginia one day, but that hardly made for a story. Not to worry, however; he would find an excuse to air the video soon enough, even though our mutual effort to nail down the affair was turning into a bust.

Soon, Gingrich was sworn in as speaker. None of the reporters chasing the story, including me, wrote about the Gingrich-Bisek affair. But whenever I saw his wife, Marianne, in our building I felt sorry for her. If I -- and practically everyone else in Washington -- had heard of the liaison, I had to assume that she had, too.

Months later, in a Vanity Fair profile of Gingrich, Gail Sheehy partly outed Bisek as Gingrich's "frequent breakfast companion." This was, I believe, the first public mention of their relationship.

The Vanity Fair piece, in turn, gave the tabloid TV show cause to air its "exclusive" video tape of Bisek leaving her apartment.

Clearly, Sheehy had heard the same rumors I had, and also couldn't prove them. But she had devised a clever way to transmit the information to her readers. It was a pretty unfair hit on Newt, though, when so little evidence was available to substantiate the insinuation, even if it may now appear to have been true.

A couple of weeks ago, on July 29, (1999), Gingrich filed divorce papers to end his second marriage, but "congressional sources" told the New York Post that the Bisek affair was not the reason for his breakup with Marianne.

Still, the Post also reported that Gingrich has been taking Bisek to dinner with friends. It seems that the Gingrich secret that "everybody" in Washington, D.C. once knew to be true is finally about to be shared with the public at large.


______________________________________________________



As an early 1999 AMA journal story revealed, a 1991 survey of medical students revealed that the overwhelming greater majority of young people then did not consider oral sex as constituting sex or sexual relations per se. But, for that matter, neither did any definition in any extant dictionary of that time, either.


> Definition of "Sexual Relations" from the 1999 Merriam-Webster Collegiate Dictionary:

SEXUAL RELATIONS (noun plural) First appeared 1950: COITUS (physical union of male and female genitalia accompanied by rhythmic movements usu. leading to the ejaculation of semen from the penis into the female reproductive tract; also: INTERCOURSE)



 
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