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Subject: What to do about Monsters? (throw in your ideas) rss

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Andre Oliveira
Brazil
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Like many of you (but not all), I don't appreciate how monsters and treasures interact with each other and by themselves.

First I'll place my current concerns:
Treasure draw is random and grants abilities outside your faction's combination
Too many monsters have abilities that change their power (more variable numbers to track)
HippoGriff has RANDOM minion destruction (I find this infuriating)
Ghoul has an uninteresting ability
Poultrygeist bonus with undead is also uninteresting
Munchkin bases can become too rare (as does monsters)

I'll try to collect some ideas on how to change them in the perspective of making them more strategic and fun to use.

idea 1 - Monsters grant effects on destruction i.e. they have bounties over their heads (and some flashier abilities) wrote:
1x Plutonium Dragon - power 5 - Bounty: Draw 3 cards - Ongoing: At the end of each player's turn, destroy all minions here with power 2 or less.
2x Bigfoot - power 4 - Bounty: Draw 2 cards - Ongoing: Before this base scores, destroy the highest power minion here.
3x HippoGriff - power 3 - Bounty: Draw 1 card - Move this minion to the base with the highest base breakpoint.
4x Web Troll - power 1 - Bounty: none - Play another monster here.

1x Knight of the Living Dead - power 5 - Bounty: You may reshuffle your discard pile into your deck - Ongoing: Before this base scores the current player move this minion to another base.
2x King Tut - power 4 - Bounty: Place an action from your discard pile into your hand. Ongoing: After this base scores, the winner discards a card.
3x Ghoul - power 3 - Bounty: Place a minion from your discard pile on the top of your deck. - Ongoing: If this base scores, move this minion to the base that replaces it.
4x Poultrygeist - power 2 - Bounty: Bury one of your corpses. Ongoing: After the first time a minion is played each round move this minion to that minion's base.

Diverse gains on monster destruction
Remove the loot division phase.
More varied monster abilities and strategic value ( more information to track)
Doesn't affect the munchkin base / monster rarity issue.
Given I can't make paste ups like I did for some regular faction cards, I might as well put something entirely different over them. (even simple cards with just the monster and it's power with no abilities)


idea 2 - Use a d6 die instead of monster cards wrote:

Over the last months I have thrown one d6 die for each monster that would appear on a base instead of using cards.
They are considered regular minions with the power equal to the number rolled.
Thus they grant no treasures and have no abilities.

Easy and fast to use
Doesn't look cool (maybe using a die with monsters illustrations and numbers?)
Doesn't affect the munchkin base / monster rarity issue.
Not compatible with warrior faction (not good for mages, clerics and dwarves as well)
I have used this for some time (and still use), it does feel less intrusive than regular monster with most strategic value they give.

idea 3 - Remove all munchkin bases and remove treasure and monster mechanics wrote:

In actuality I did this on the file I uploaded here

Removing the bases is easiest thing to do
I have done the variant for Wariors, Thieves, Dwarves, Mages and Clerics, they aren't the original but play mostly in a similar way (also included the treasure faction - whoever gets them is a "rich xxx" combo)
It feels a bit sad to not use monsters and the bases (there are a few good ones among them)
Changing those bases's break point and removing monster could also work to make most of them usable. (note: I need numeric stickers for this)
Maybe the monster card could be shuffled in the base deck an played on the base that comes after them (or each time a base breaks the next one comes with a monster).
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Chet C.
China
Shanghai
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Re: Monster changes (new cards, different effects, and so on...)
Desocupado, you have done a lot for the community and likely for the development of the game itself. However, sometimes I wonder whether you would be happier if you simply created your own game rather than reworking hundreds of cards that you don't like.

Just a thoughtful suggestion. Again, I appreciate what you do for the SU community!
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Andre Oliveira
Brazil
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Re: Monster changes (new cards, different effects, and so on...)
Well I used the dice thing (idea 2) for some time (after not using munchkin bases for a bigger time) - the inspiration came from a brazilian game, "masmorra de dados" (dice dungeon) which may or may not have taken after Quarriors. Basically the game had custom die, with each face being a different monster.

I've started this whole post because a person was asking about more/different monsters on reddit. And I had the sketch idea which could be cool to discuss. //I've updated the thread name to better pass that.

Truth be told, even if the monsters had flashier abilities (idea 1), they would still be adding unnecessary complexity to the game.


Still the whole modding the game thing is similar to modding a digital game (which I already did on the past), but it involves LESS moving parts. I find it fun to think think about stuff like "this change here would increase that feature's appeal".
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David Lee
United States
Los Angeles
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Honestly, these days we play limited draft, limited base deck. In other words, the available factions determine the composition of the base deck. This ensures that factions have the opportunity to benefit from their bases, Munchkin factions and bases with monsters included. I suppose you can say it's a more diplomatic solution.

Balance-wise, I haven't seen any evidence to suggest that without naturally occurring monsters, Munchkin factions are at a disadvantage. Four of the factions don't even relate to monsters or treasure in any way. Warriors are able to summon tons of monsters, and Mages too to a limited extent (noting that they have additional utility besides monster interactions anyway). Dwarves are a high-tier carry faction without monsters and can already directly access the treasure deck. Thieves also get most of their treasure from direct treasure access, rather than monster interaction. I had concerns when I first got Munchkin about how the balance would work, but then after playing enough I realized I was trying to solve a problem that didn't exist.
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Andre Oliveira
Brazil
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Parsat wrote:
Honestly, these days we play limited draft, limited base deck. In other words, the available factions determine the composition of the base deck. This ensures that factions have the opportunity to benefit from their bases, Munchkin factions and bases with monsters included. I suppose you can say it's a more diplomatic solution.

It's the rule AEG made to deal with it. Albeit factions don't necessarily benefit from their bases than from other sets - for instance:
Ninja and tornados loves killing and moving monsters. Cats even more for the massive breakpoint/power boost.
Tricksters love the Birthday Party base.

Parsat wrote:
Balance-wise, I haven't seen any evidence to suggest that without naturally occurring monsters, Munchkin factions are at a disadvantage. Four of the factions don't even relate to monsters or treasure in any way. Warriors are able to summon tons of monsters, and Mages too to a limited extent (noting that they have additional utility besides monster interactions anyway). Dwarves are a high-tier carry faction without monsters and can already directly access the treasure deck. Thieves also get most of their treasure from direct treasure access, rather than monster interaction. I had concerns when I first got Munchkin about how the balance would work, but then after playing enough I realized I was trying to solve a problem that didn't exist.

Not all of them - mostly dwarves, warriors and mages.

Sometimes play on a minion treasures don't show and people kill the gld diggers - making all of other minion's abilities useless.

Speaking of warriors, if there are enough monsters around, they can do multihit kills, ensuring a much more safe play - also having monsters allows them to get more option on where to play half of their minions. Similarly if they cna focus on killing monsters, the can reduce breakpoints and draw lots of cards, specially since most of their monster remover is unrestricted allowing them to mimic the power of a well played Rampage.


Clerics also lose some appeal on the turner - which could be equal to placing 3p and also dropping a base breakpoint and collecting treasures from ANY undead (who tend to have higher power due their abilities). It is bearable if no monster show up but you don't see any faction with three copies of a minion with the on play ability "Draw 3 cards and permanently reduce this base breakdown point by 2-7"
 
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Jay Young
United States
virginia beach
Virginia
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Parsat wrote:
Honestly, these days we play limited draft, limited base deck. In other words, the available factions determine the composition of the base deck. This ensures that factions have the opportunity to benefit from their bases, Munchkin factions and bases with monsters included. I suppose you can say it's a more diplomatic solution.

Balance-wise, I haven't seen any evidence to suggest that without naturally occurring monsters, Munchkin factions are at a disadvantage. Four of the factions don't even relate to monsters or treasure in any way. Warriors are able to summon tons of monsters, and Mages too to a limited extent (noting that they have additional utility besides monster interactions anyway). Dwarves are a high-tier carry faction without monsters and can already directly access the treasure deck. Thieves also get most of their treasure from direct treasure access, rather than monster interaction. I had concerns when I first got Munchkin about how the balance would work, but then after playing enough I realized I was trying to solve a problem that didn't exist.


I agree with this.
If you think warriors, dwarves and mages need monsters already out then I don't think you have played them enough
 
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