Adam Butler
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Just a goofy thematic idea I had- let's face it, it's a travesty that a game dripping with so much theme that there's no reference to Vader "retiring" Imperial officers. So I decided to make up this replacement for his starting action card:

Quote:
You Have Failed me for the Last Time

Special

Play when a you fail a mission with a non-starting leader attached to it. Remove one non-starting leader attached to the mission from the game. Take one Imperial leader from the reserves and place them in the system where the mission was attempted.


Alternatively, I was thinking of letting them actually perform a recruit phase mid-turn before placing the new leader in there, but I thought the extra Action Card might be too powerful. Thoughts?
 
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MarioFanaticXV wrote:
Just a goofy thematic idea I had- let's face it, it's a travesty that a game dripping with so much theme that there's no reference to Vader "retiring" Imperial officers. So I decided to make up this replacement for his starting action card:

Quote:
You Have Failed me for the Last Time

Special

Play when a you fail a mission with a non-starting leader attached to it. Remove one non-starting leader attached to the mission from the game. Take one Imperial leader from the reserves and place them in the system where the mission was attempted.


Alternatively, I was thinking of letting them actually perform a recruit phase mid-turn before placing the new leader in there, but I thought the extra Action Card might be too powerful. Thoughts?


1) I never understood how the Vader card should be used, since (knowing it exists) the Rebel player will usually play rescue missions as their first action, which Vader cannot oppose lacking the blue icon.

2) Your replacement should include something like "with a logistic icon" or something like that, to avoid bringing in Boba (who tends to be a huge boost) and Fell (since that would be unthematic).

Nice idea though.
 
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Saro Gumusyan

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But you'd have to make Piett eligible, I guess you could just narrow it down to leaders with tactics values which would exclude Fett and Greejatus.

If we're changing action cards one thing I'd like to see is Ackbar's "It's a Trap" be true to the Battle of Endor and allow an immediate retreat before combat. The real kicker to that card is wasting the Empire's action card except for Piett's.

Plus with "Point Blank Range" engaging Star Destroyers so close was Lando's idea, but I guess Ackbar executed it. You could actually pair up Ackbar with Wedge on "Target the Star Destroyers" to represent concentrating fire on the Super Star Destroyer.
 
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Adam Butler
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geki wrote:
1) I never understood how the Vader card should be used, since (knowing it exists) the Rebel player will usually play rescue missions as their first action, which Vader cannot oppose lacking the blue icon.

2) Your replacement should include something like "with a logistic icon" or something like that, to avoid bringing in Boba (who tends to be a huge boost) and Fell (since that would be unthematic).


Vader doesn't have to be in the system to use It Is Your Destiny- only cards used during a mission or combat require the leader to be there. It Is Your Destiny is activated AFTER the mission is resolved, and doesn't need him to actually be there.

As for allowing him to bring in Fett or Fel, I see no problem with that. After all, it was the Imperial Navy's constant failures that caused him to bring in Fett in Empire Strikes Back.
 
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David Umstattd
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geki wrote:


1) I never understood how the Vader card should be used, since (knowing it exists) the Rebel player will usually play rescue missions as their first action, which Vader cannot oppose lacking the blue icon.


You can oppose any mission. You don't have to have the associated icon.
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David Umstattd
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Darth Coupon wrote:
But you'd have to make Piett eligible, I guess you could just narrow it down to leaders with tactics values which would exclude Fett and Greejatus.



Why? There's no reason Vader couldn't have or wouldn't have force choked Greejatus or Fett. Limiting it to non starting leaders seems reasonable.

Though there should be something you actually get out of killing one of your leaders. Probably an auto succeed on a mission or something.
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Saro Gumusyan

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This was in response to the replacement mechanism suggested. The tactics requirement represents a field promotion:

"You are in command now, Admiral Piett."

I can see the angle of enlisting Boba after Needa failed to get the job done, but Greejatus was Palpatine's lackey. I guess you could open it up to make up for Han's free recruit-only Chewie or Lando- but getting someone like Boba when you really need him can be a big edge.
 
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Mike Gallo
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MarioFanaticXV wrote:
Vader doesn't have to be in the system to use It Is Your Destiny


This is not correct. Per the rulebook:

Rules Reference wrote:
Action cards used during a mission or combat can only be used if one of the leaders shown on the card is already in the system in which the mission or combat is occurring. The only exceptions are action cards that specifically move the leader to the system.


Vader's action card:

It Is Your Destiny wrote:
Use during a mission after a leader is rescued. Capture 1 leader who attempted this mission.


Vader has to be in the system, but luckily he can oppose the mission, even though he doesn't have any blue icons.
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Necr0mancer wrote:
MarioFanaticXV wrote:


[q="It Is Your Destiny"]Use during a mission after a leader is rescued. Capture 1 leader who attempted this mission.


Vader has to be in the system, but luckily he can oppose the mission, even though he doesn't have any blue icons.


Absolutely correct. I do this pretty often, especially if I see 2 leaders on a mission card with a bunch of blue symbols. I hold Vader back and oppose.
Obviously be careful if Obi Wan is to the rescue....



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So this similar variant action card was already talked about on a different thread, and I created it and have been playing with it for some time:
https://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/23160641#23160641

The sum up the way I worded the card I allowed Vader to be sent into a system the Empire has just failed a mission. It gives you an auto success and you trade in the offending leaders with the opportunity to replace him with a new one.

There is no reason to limit it to non-starting leaders, if the Empire wants to kill Palpatine its their fault, and on top of that its super thematic.

 
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I like this card alot, but I don't see the point of limiting it at all. Considering that you use Vader's action card, you use Vader's turn, you actually lose a leader, you don't get the new leader's action card, and you had to actually fail a mission in the first place, I think the card is completely balanced without the restriction.

Compare with Han's card that gets Chewie or Lando. You don't have to lose a leader for that one, but this one is balanced by letting you pick the leader you get (also, you had to fail a mission).

FWIW I don't like the other card as it allows you to auto-succeed on the mission, which seems too strong.

If you remove that clause and made a mock up of it on a card, I would print one out and likely play with it in my games.
 
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Necr0mancer wrote:

FWIW I don't like the other card as it allows you to auto-succeed on the mission, which seems too strong.


Without this what does the card do? Its thematic, and replaces a leader, but it doesn't help the imperial player.

Throughout the game the empire doesn't attempt that many missions, even less that will be opposed. Most likely you will be using this card in conjunction with a capture scenario, and in a bunch of those cases you could have placed Vader on the card as a second leader) to ensure a win.
If its a really good mission you are also killing off a really good leader (or 2 leaders), i think its a reasonable swap.
 
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My concern is that the ability to automatically succeed at a mission is much better than the flavor-based intention of the card, which is to replace one leader with another. With that clause in place, I wouldn’t care about getting a different leader at all, I would just play the card so that I could auto-succeed at a mission. It would change the focus of the card. Also, auto-succeeding at ANY mission is extremely good. No other card in the game can do that.


Considering that some of the empire's leaders have very poor skills, I consider upgrading a bad one into one with good scores to be a benefit. Switching Tagge or Tarkin for someone alot better like Boba Fett, Colonel Yularen or even Greejatus is pretty good.


Maybe if instead of automatically succeeding, you removed the old leader, moved Vader to the location, placed the new leader in the system and then rolled for the mission again? Getting a second roll on a mission is pretty good and now you have Vader there, so if it was close before it should succeed now.
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MarioFanaticXV wrote:
Just a goofy thematic idea I had- let's face it, it's a travesty that a game dripping with so much theme that there's no reference to Vader "retiring" Imperial officers. So I decided to make up this replacement for his starting action card:

Quote:
You Have Failed me for the Last Time

Special

Play when a you fail a mission with a non-starting leader attached to it. Remove one non-starting leader attached to the mission from the game. Take one Imperial leader from the reserves and place them in the system where the mission was attempted.


Alternatively, I was thinking of letting them actually perform a recruit phase mid-turn before placing the new leader in there, but I thought the extra Action Card might be too powerful. Thoughts?


On second thought I like the idea of an extra recruitment, as it adds some randomness to the game and the extra action card makes up for the extra leader from Han's Old Friend. And it makes sense to make anyone eligible for being choked, including Tarkin & Tagge. I would go one step further for theme and include losing a battle, as it would dovetail nicely with Ozzel trying to Catch Them By surprise but have the space battle be a disaster.
 
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Necr0mancer wrote:
or even Greejatus is pretty good.


You like this guy? always thought he was the worst leader, he doesnt have tactic symbols, and he doesnt have god action cards, and his symbols are not great either (even tho there are 3 of them)
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Saro Gumusyan

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If the Empire wants to go heavy on Rule By Fear he has some use in freeing up Palpatine to move forces or oppose Rebel diplomacy missions. But that's all he's good for, since plenty of other Imperials provide intel icons, plus Palpatine could easily attempt Imperial Propaganda.

His action cards aren't that bad, he could always tag along with someone for a Blindside mission and his other card does come in handy for an assault on the base.
 
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jooice wrote:
Necr0mancer wrote:
or even Greejatus is pretty good.


You like this guy? always thought he was the worst leader, he doesnt have tactic symbols, and he doesnt have god action cards, and his symbols are not great either (even tho there are 3 of them)


Eh, well, there was a reason I listed him third...

But he's the only Imperial leader besides Vader and Palpatine to have more then one yellow skill, so he does have that going for him. Its likely you don't want to send either of those two on low-yellow missions so he's good for that.

He's a better example to emphasize that being able to get any leader you want would be useful. If you needed yellow symbols, he would be your guy, I guess.
 
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He is the guy that if I drew the 1 action action card and HAD to get someone he is the guy i would be say "well at least its not no leader"

 
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David Umstattd
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Necr0mancer wrote:
My concern is that the ability to automatically succeed at a mission is much better than the flavor-based intention of the card, which is to replace one leader with another. With that clause in place, I wouldn’t care about getting a different leader at all, I would just play the card so that I could auto-succeed at a mission. It would change the focus of the card. Also, auto-succeeding at ANY mission is extremely good. No other card in the game can do that.


like literally half of the action cards in the game have to do with instantly winning or failing a mission. R2D2, C3PO, It is Your Destiny, Misdirection, Bubba Fett Where?, Blindside,

The whole "keep them from opposing" or "succeed after a failed roll" thing is a super common effect. Adding it to a new card wouldn't be anything new. And requiring you to kill a leader and replace them randomly feels like a reasonable price to pay.
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David Umstattd wrote:
like literally half of the action cards in the game have to do with instantly winning or failing a mission. R2D2, C3PO, It is Your Destiny, Misdirection, Bubba Fett Where?, Blindside


6 of the 34 action cards have to do with succeeding or failing a mission (And that is with a liberal definition of "succeeding or failing"). That is no where near "literally half".

Boba Fett? Where? Has nothing to do with succeeding, failing or opposing missions.

R2D2, Misdirection and Blindside don't guarantee a success, they make it far more likely, but they still can be played around and given the worst circumstances, can still fail.

C3PO has a restriction on which types of missions he can succeed. Additionally, its a rebel card, so it can't make, say, Lure to the Dark Side, succeed, while this card possibly could.

David Umstattd wrote:
The whole "keep them from opposing" or "succeed after a failed roll" thing is a super common effect. Adding it to a new card wouldn't be anything new. And requiring you to kill a leader and replace them randomly feels like a reasonable price to pay.


There is one mission and one action card that prevents your opponent from opposing your mission. Only 2, maybe 3 cards could have the POTENTIAL to change a fail to a success. I wouldn't say that 5 cards in the game makes anything "super common".

Automatically succeeding on any mission, no matter the opposition, without restriction to the type of mission, for the empire, would be something new.

Finally, losing a leader is not really a "price" if you're getting one back. It would be easy to manipulate the situation to set a bad leader up to "fail" an important mission just so that you could get a different one and guarantee a success.

I'm sorry, this effect would be extremely overpowered compared to what else is already in the game.
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I dislike allowing the Imperial player to recruit a new leader -- the Rebels have enough ways to lose heroes. I'd rather have the card allow for a substantial benefit with the risk of eliminating an Imperial leader from the game entirely. Something like:

"Play after an Imperial mission has failed. That mission immediately succeeds. Roll a dice -- on a hit/critical hit result, the Imperial player must remove one of the heroes assigned to this mission from the game." It's a dark counter to C-3PO, powerful because you can draw out a Rebel opposition attempt and still succeed, but you risk losing a hero (and if it's a strong hero like Palpatine, Boba, or Yularen; you likely won't want to take that risk). The only "problematic" hero to be removed would be Palpatine, but on the other hand it could insinuate that Vader successfully overthrows his master to rule the Empire himself *shrug*

However, I'm actually far more partial to making this a Rebel objective card. If the Rebel Alliance successfully opposes an Imperial mission, play this card to remove one of the Imperial leaders assigned to this mission from the game. Darth Vader and Emperor Palpatine cannot be removed by "You have failed me for the last time." The trick is to make it worth 0 objective points -- the Rebel player can use it to hurt the Imperial player's long term game plan, but they aren't advancing their own victory conditions while they use it. Stick it as a (II) objective so it can't be played first turn to cripple the Empire before it's been able to recruit. You keep the thematic "Vader killing underlings for failure" idea, but rewards the Rebels for making Imperial heroes fail.
 
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You're having to spend Vader + a leader + a card to succeed in ONE mission. And you want the empire to also lose a leader? We're already limiting it to non starting heroes (which means Lure of the Dark side is nearly impossible)

Having to waste all those resources to succeed in one mission is a fine enough cost. The biggest missions that the empire would be contested on are Display of Power, Lure, and Fear will Keep them in Line. All of which either require 3 diplomacy or are best done with a starting leader. Making them incredibly difficult to use with the proposed card.

Honestly the version where you get a general back I thought wasn't powerful enough because it required too specific circumstances to come into play. Often it would be simpler or better to just assign Vader to the mission in question in addition to whoever was attempting it already.
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David Umstattd wrote:
You're having to spend Vader + a leader + a card to succeed in ONE mission. And you want the empire to also lose a leader? We're already limiting it to non starting heroes (which means Lure of the Dark side is nearly impossible)

Having to waste all those resources to succeed in one mission is a fine enough cost. The biggest missions that the empire would be contested on are Display of Power, Lure, and Fear will Keep them in Line. All of which either require 3 diplomacy or are best done with a starting leader. Making them incredibly difficult to use with the proposed card.

Honestly the version where you get a general back I thought wasn't powerful enough because it required too specific circumstances to come into play. Often it would be simpler or better to just assign Vader to the mission in question in addition to whoever was attempting it already.


Thats why I say, dont limit the card to be used on only non-starting leaders.
So vader kills palpatine, thats great.
If he kills anyone else and draws 1 card to recruit from then there is no guarantee its a good trade (empire might even be stuck without 1 leader)

If the empire is trying the mission with 2 leaders then its even less OP, cause then you eliminate 2 for a success and a recruit.

Sometimes towards the end of the game the empire doesn't need as many leaders, this might be when succeeding is most important.

It is not a card you will ALWAYS play, but when you do it will be useful, but not OP in my opinion.

I suggest playing with it and trying it, you will draw 2 of 5 starting action cards, it'll take a few plays until you see it come up and be played effectively
 
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jooice wrote:
David Umstattd wrote:
You're having to spend Vader + a leader + a card to succeed in ONE mission. And you want the empire to also lose a leader? We're already limiting it to non starting heroes (which means Lure of the Dark side is nearly impossible)

Having to waste all those resources to succeed in one mission is a fine enough cost. The biggest missions that the empire would be contested on are Display of Power, Lure, and Fear will Keep them in Line. All of which either require 3 diplomacy or are best done with a starting leader. Making them incredibly difficult to use with the proposed card.

Honestly the version where you get a general back I thought wasn't powerful enough because it required too specific circumstances to come into play. Often it would be simpler or better to just assign Vader to the mission in question in addition to whoever was attempting it already.


Thats why I say, dont limit the card to be used on only non-starting leaders.
So vader kills palpatine, thats great.
If he kills anyone else and draws 1 card to recruit from then there is no guarantee its a good trade (empire might even be stuck without 1 leader)

If the empire is trying the mission with 2 leaders then its even less OP, cause then you eliminate 2 for a success and a recruit.

Sometimes towards the end of the game the empire doesn't need as many leaders, this might be when succeeding is most important.

It is not a card you will ALWAYS play, but when you do it will be useful, but not OP in my opinion.

I suggest playing with it and trying it, you will draw 2 of 5 starting action cards, it'll take a few plays until you see it come up and be played effectively


Allowing Vader to use the card on non starting leaders is just a pure buff. And everyone was complaining they thought the card was over powered.
I like the idea of you drawing a card and having a chance to not be able to recruit anyone. And nobody has suggested that the card kill all leader's assigned to the failed mission but that shouldn't be a bad addition.

having the card be generally underwhelming is fine. Most of the empire action cards are generally not great.
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David Umstattd wrote:
jooice wrote:
David Umstattd wrote:
You're having to spend Vader + a leader + a card to succeed in ONE mission. And you want the empire to also lose a leader? We're already limiting it to non starting heroes (which means Lure of the Dark side is nearly impossible)

Having to waste all those resources to succeed in one mission is a fine enough cost. The biggest missions that the empire would be contested on are Display of Power, Lure, and Fear will Keep them in Line. All of which either require 3 diplomacy or are best done with a starting leader. Making them incredibly difficult to use with the proposed card.

Honestly the version where you get a general back I thought wasn't powerful enough because it required too specific circumstances to come into play. Often it would be simpler or better to just assign Vader to the mission in question in addition to whoever was attempting it already.


Thats why I say, dont limit the card to be used on only non-starting leaders.
So vader kills palpatine, thats great.
If he kills anyone else and draws 1 card to recruit from then there is no guarantee its a good trade (empire might even be stuck without 1 leader)

If the empire is trying the mission with 2 leaders then its even less OP, cause then you eliminate 2 for a success and a recruit.

Sometimes towards the end of the game the empire doesn't need as many leaders, this might be when succeeding is most important.

It is not a card you will ALWAYS play, but when you do it will be useful, but not OP in my opinion.

I suggest playing with it and trying it, you will draw 2 of 5 starting action cards, it'll take a few plays until you see it come up and be played effectively


Allowing Vader to use the card on non starting leaders is just a pure buff. And everyone was complaining they thought the card was over powered.
I like the idea of you drawing a card and having a chance to not be able to recruit anyone. And nobody has suggested that the card kill all leader's assigned to the failed mission but that shouldn't be a bad addition.

having the card be generally underwhelming is fine. Most of the empire action cards are generally not great.


Exactly what I said:

 
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