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So because of another thread I was over on Lifeway's site and came across this little gem of information.

It turns out that what I have suspected all along is actually true... this media driven and RSP adopted idea that vile bigoted hate driven Christians are the force behind Trump's political success is likely false.

From Data gathered before pussy-gate BTW. So not a reaction to this latest round of Trump implosions

Among the findings of a new survey of 1,000 Protestant senior pastors conducted Aug. 22-Sept. 16, 2016. Before even the first debate:



Pastors Prefer ‘Undecided’ to Clinton or Trump

Quote:

NASHVILLE, Tenn.—Political endorsements by preachers have been few and far between this election season.

That may be because the most popular candidate among preachers is “I don’t know.”

A new report from Nashville-based LifeWay Research found 4 out of 10 Protestant pastors are undecided about which candidate to vote for. A third (32 percent) plan to vote for Donald Trump. One in 5 (19 percent) plans to vote for Hillary Clinton. Four percent support Gary Johnson. Three percent do not plan to vote.

Few pastors believe Christians who vote their conscience will all support the same candidate. And few say Christians should vote only for a candidate who has a reasonable chance of winning.

Meanwhile, only one preacher in 100 has endorsed a candidate from the pulpit.

Those are among the findings of a new survey of 1,000 Protestant senior pastors conducted Aug. 22-Sept. 16, 2016. Most are ambivalent about the major party candidates, said Scott McConnell, executive director of LifeWay Research.

“Donald Trump does better with pastors than Hillary Clinton,” he said. “But both candidates are still less popular than ‘Undecided.’”

...

Clergy and other church leaders may share a common faith, said McConnell. That doesn’t mean they all agree on who should lead the country.

“When it comes to politics, pastors are just as divided as other Americans,” McConnell said.



If you go on to read the entire article you will see that among the less than a third who were planning on voting for Trump at that point, the Supreme Court and Abortion were the driving factors in that decision.

Which makes sense in why they would hold their nose and vote Trump anyway given that even an unknown jackass is more likely to do what you want than a known opponent if that is the driving criteria for your voting choices.

Quote:
Pastors voting for Trump are more likely to cite Supreme Court nominees (36 percent) and abortion (17 percent) and less likely to say personal character matters most (10 percent). Pastors voting for Clinton are more likely to cite personal character (28 percent) and immigration (7 percent) and less likely to cite abortion (less than 1 percent).

Baptist pastors care most about potential Supreme Court nominees (28 percent). Presbyterian/Reformed (36 percent), Methodist (34 percent) and Holiness pastors (34 percent) favor personal character, and Pentecostal pastors (30 percent) care most about religious freedom.



So can we stop the Christian Bashing for the rest of this cycle?

Sure some INDIVIDUAL Christians, including some in leadership roles, have been and often ARE highly vocal jackasses, but they do not represent anything like a majority of even church leaders very well Christians overall.




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Trump's core support has always been independents and moderates.
 
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Seems a little misleading.

You could also say 50% more pastors plan to vote for Trump than Hillary.

No way to know how the "undecided" break out til election day I suppose.
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Meerkat wrote:
So can we stop the Christian Bashing for the rest of this cycle?


No.

For the past five years or so, we've heard over and over again that Christian morality just isn't consequentialist. If Christians cannot be associated with baking a cake because the people who will celebrate with that cake are doing something they regard as immoral, even if laws which ensure free access to markets are good for society. Those arguments about the best consequences for all of us, we've long been told, are irrelevant because the consciences of Christians will not allow them to become complicit in sin. So the argument that it "makes sense in why they would hold their nose and vote Trump" requires that we assume they've been insincere this whole time about the content of their views on the religious foundations of morality. But how often have you defended that view of the rights of conscience of the religious right here in RSP?

Trump's not a jackass, he's a proudly self-proclaimed serial sex offender who was willing to brag about breaking one of the ten commandments WHILE WEARING A MICROPHONE. "Jackass" doesn't cut it. And his biggest supporters are conservative Christians. So, yes, there are many wonderful Christians who do not deserve to be tarred with support for Trump or for those organizations which support him (and even some of that support may be overstated). But what proportion of Trump's support comes from Christians? When people say that bigoted hate-driven Christians are behind Trump's success, who else do you think it is?
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Survey: Most Pastors aren't admitting to supporting Trump but will do so anyway because racism, misogyny and hypocracy are the basis of Christianity
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Koldfoot wrote:
Trump's core support has always been independents and moderates.

Citation needed.
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jmilum wrote:
Koldfoot wrote:
Trump's core support has always been independents and moderates.

Citation needed.
Well the support moderate polices, like only stopping Muslims (rather THEN ALL DARKIES) from entering the country, or only only outlawing abortions for women who are pregnant.

Policies such as flogging servants, shooting poor people, and the extension of slavery to anyone who hasn't got a knighthood.

Moderate policies for a greater USA!
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Quote:
The Trump evangelicals deserve a special shout-out in all this. By accepting, or even excusing, Trump's talk of sexual predation, they are demonstrating a political polarization that runs so deep that even common decency no longer matters. This is what many Democrats already showed in the 1990s by minimizing or excusing a presidential abuse of power for sexual purposes that seems even more odious at two decades removed. Now some evangelicals are making a similar case -- downplaying the importance of integrity, morality and character in leadership.

Until recently, it was presumed, by both critics and supporters, that the GOP was the party of traditional moral order. Under Trump, it seems much more like British conservatism at its worst -- hate and mock the liberals, fear the outsiders, and put a topless woman on page 3. The deep partisanship of Trump evangelicals -- fighting for a team rather than standing for principles -- is actually aiding the secularization of American politics.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2016/10/10/a_polit...
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rinelk wrote:
Meerkat wrote:
So can we stop the Christian Bashing for the rest of this cycle?


No.

For the past five years or so, we've heard over and over again that Christian morality just isn't consequentialist. If Christians cannot be associated with baking a cake because the people who will celebrate with that cake are doing something they regard as immoral, even if laws which ensure free access to markets are good for society. Those arguments about the best consequences for all of us, we've long been told, are irrelevant because the consciences of Christians will not allow them to become complicit in sin. So the argument that it "makes sense in why they would hold their nose and vote Trump" requires that we assume they've been insincere this whole time about the content of their views on the religious foundations of morality. But how often have you defended that view of the rights of conscience of the religious right here in RSP?

Fortunately for the advocates for the right to free association, forcing businesses to bake cakes isn't good for society. There's some begging of a question going on here.
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jarredscott78 wrote:
Fortunately for the advocates for the right to free association, forcing businesses to bake cakes isn't good for society.


Says who? Many people believe that government protection from discrimination is extremely good for society. Even the Libertarian candidate for President disagrees with you, btw:

Quote:
The issue arose when fellow Libertarian presidential candidate Austin Petersen brought to the attention of moderator John Stossel that in an earlier debate in Oregon, Johnson declared that bakeries should be forced to bake wedding cakes for gay couples. Johnson affirmed the position, arguing that being able to discriminate on the basis of religion is a “black hole.” Petersen pushed Johnson on the issue and asked whether he felt Jewish bakers should be forced to bake wedding cakes for Nazi customers. Stossel directed the question to Johnson, who replied “that would be my contention, yes.”


http://independentpoliticalreport.com/2016/04/gary-johnson-j...
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cbazler wrote:
jarredscott78 wrote:
Fortunately for the advocates for the right to free association, forcing businesses to bake cakes isn't good for society.


Says who? Many people believe that government protection from discrimination is extremely good for society.
And they're allowed to be wrong about gay cakes.
cbazler wrote:

Even the Libertarian candidate for President disagrees with you, btw:

Seems only libertarians are expected to line up 100% with their nominated candidate. Republicans and Democrats all get to be special little snowflakes with all sorts of nuance in their positions.
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There's going to be a lot more castigstion of Christians before the end of the dlection here for 2 reasons.

1)There are a powerful set of Christians and those claiming to be Christian who have used the christian 'flag' as a rallying point for people who are afraid. This isn't the good healthy sort of fear, it is fear of growth, change, and 'other'. These people plant the term Chrstian in the sand to defend 'traditional' marriage from the spooky gays, or to keep those oh so strange brown people who wear headdresses at bay. And the kicker here, not all Christians are like that, nor is the doctorine of Christianity, but if the good don't denounce the evil you get balled up with it. It's the same thing that many Americans demand of Muslims in the US and around the world, railing against being the victims of it ourselves is very hypocritical.

2)RSP has a healthy number of hypocritical aetheists (not all) who love to paint with broad strokes on christianity while demanding they themselves be considered unique and nuanced when you are talking about atheism.

Do something about #1, let the people who are #2 just lay where they are, people will recognize the stink.
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rinelk wrote:
Meerkat wrote:
So can we stop the Christian Bashing for the rest of this cycle?


No.

For the past five years or so, we've heard over and over again that Christian morality just isn't consequentialist. If Christians cannot be associated with baking a cake because the people who will celebrate with that cake are doing something they regard as immoral, even if laws which ensure free access to markets are good for society. Those arguments about the best consequences for all of us, we've long been told, are irrelevant because the consciences of Christians will not allow them to become complicit in sin. So the argument that it "makes sense in why they would hold their nose and vote Trump" requires that we assume they've been insincere this whole time about the content of their views on the religious foundations of morality. But how often have you defended that view of the rights of conscience of the religious right here in RSP?

Trump's not a jackass, he's a proudly self-proclaimed serial sex offender who was willing to brag about breaking one of the ten commandments WHILE WEARING A MICROPHONE. "Jackass" doesn't cut it. And his biggest supporters are conservative Christians. So, yes, there are many wonderful Christians who do not deserve to be tarred with support for Trump or for those organizations which support him (and even some of that support may be overstated). But what proportion of Trump's support comes from Christians? When people say that bigoted hate-driven Christians are behind Trump's success, who else do you think it is?


Exactly. A beeleeber who supports Trump really has lost any sympathy in their quest for the eternal dance remix soul party. Not that I had much belief in their reasoning abilities to begin with, but the sharp edges of their dissonance really are visible in this campaign.

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Ha. Are we finally in the "we never liked him in the first place" phase? The equivalent of "Yeah, ok, it's real, we did it and we didn't stop it, but global warming is good...who likes winter?"

To be fair, the most evangelical (in the original sense) Christian I know (my brother-in-law) hated Trump from the beginning. I'm going to stick with "chickenshit racists" as the ad hominem categorization of Trump supporters.
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shumyum wrote:
Ha. Are we finally in the "we never liked him in the first place" phase? The equivalent of "Yeah, ok, it's real, we did it and we didn't stop it, but global warming is good...who likes winter?"

To be fair, the most evangelical (in the original sense) Christian I know (my brother-in-law) hated Trump from the beginning. I'm going to stick with "chickenshit racists" as the ad hominem categorization of Trump supporters.
Not sure I would do that far, but yes I think it is more a certain kind of Conservative libertarian who backs trump.

I do think they are mostly people who use Christian as a label and a justification, rather then as a system of genuine belief.
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slatersteven wrote:
I think it is more a certain kind of Conservative libertarian who backs trump.

Oh good lord. This is tied (with 947 other opinions) for the most wrong you've ever been. Do you have one single clue about what libertarian means and how that compares to what Trump believes?

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jarredscott78 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
I think it is more a certain kind of Conservative libertarian who backs trump.

Oh good lord. This is tied (with 947 other opinions) for the most wrong you've ever been. Do you have one single clue about what libertarian means and how that compares to what Trump believes?


Express shipping looking real good now?
 
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jmilum wrote:
jarredscott78 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
I think it is more a certain kind of Conservative libertarian who backs trump.

Oh good lord. This is tied (with 947 other opinions) for the most wrong you've ever been. Do you have one single clue about what libertarian means and how that compares to what Trump believes?


Express shipping looking real good now?
You will also note I did not say libertarian, I am talking about a very specific kind of political double speak that claims libertarianism (and Christian) as a label to act as a smoke screen for ultra conservative values that have little to do with either.


 
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Very disappointing that people who are supposed to be the moral compass of the religious aren't near unanimously condemning his behavior. Over 70% of pastors haven't spoken out and how much of a shithead Trump is. If that isn't hypocritical I don't know what is. They ought to be extremely critical of someone who says he is christian but clearly behaves in a non christian way and doesn't show any remorse for his behavior at all.
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@sfox: Yeah, the funny thing is that meerkat thinks these numbers are in any way good ... I would hope for better from my spiritual guides ...
 
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Meerkat wrote:


So because of another thread I was over on Lifeway's site and came across this little gem of information.

It turns out that what I have suspected all along is actually true... this media driven and RSP adopted idea that vile bigoted hate driven Christians are the force behind Trump's political success is likely false.

From Data gathered before pussy-gate BTW. So not a reaction to this latest round of Trump implosions

Among the findings of a new survey of 1,000 Protestant senior pastors conducted Aug. 22-Sept. 16, 2016. Before even the first debate:



Pastors Prefer ‘Undecided’ to Clinton or Trump

Quote:

NASHVILLE, Tenn.—Political endorsements by preachers have been few and far between this election season.

That may be because the most popular candidate among preachers is “I don’t know.”

A new report from Nashville-based LifeWay Research found 4 out of 10 Protestant pastors are undecided about which candidate to vote for. A third (32 percent) plan to vote for Donald Trump. One in 5 (19 percent) plans to vote for Hillary Clinton. Four percent support Gary Johnson. Three percent do not plan to vote.

Few pastors believe Christians who vote their conscience will all support the same candidate. And few say Christians should vote only for a candidate who has a reasonable chance of winning.

Meanwhile, only one preacher in 100 has endorsed a candidate from the pulpit.

Those are among the findings of a new survey of 1,000 Protestant senior pastors conducted Aug. 22-Sept. 16, 2016. Most are ambivalent about the major party candidates, said Scott McConnell, executive director of LifeWay Research.

“Donald Trump does better with pastors than Hillary Clinton,” he said. “But both candidates are still less popular than ‘Undecided.’”

...

Clergy and other church leaders may share a common faith, said McConnell. That doesn’t mean they all agree on who should lead the country.

“When it comes to politics, pastors are just as divided as other Americans,” McConnell said.



If you go on to read the entire article you will see that among the less than a third who were planning on voting for Trump at that point, the Supreme Court and Abortion were the driving factors in that decision.

Which makes sense in why they would hold their nose and vote Trump anyway given that even an unknown jackass is more likely to do what you want than a known opponent if that is the driving criteria for your voting choices.

Quote:
Pastors voting for Trump are more likely to cite Supreme Court nominees (36 percent) and abortion (17 percent) and less likely to say personal character matters most (10 percent). Pastors voting for Clinton are more likely to cite personal character (28 percent) and immigration (7 percent) and less likely to cite abortion (less than 1 percent).

Baptist pastors care most about potential Supreme Court nominees (28 percent). Presbyterian/Reformed (36 percent), Methodist (34 percent) and Holiness pastors (34 percent) favor personal character, and Pentecostal pastors (30 percent) care most about religious freedom.



So can we stop the Christian Bashing for the rest of this cycle?

Sure some INDIVIDUAL Christians, including some in leadership roles, have been and often ARE highly vocal jackasses, but they do not represent anything like a majority of even church leaders very well Christians overall.






The more vocal of those leaders who are still with The Donald even now brings to mind a biblical verse

"As Johnʼs disciples were leaving, Jesus began to speak to the crowd about John: “What did you go out into the wilderness to see? A reed swayed by the wind? If not, what did you go out to see? A man dressed in fine clothes? No, those who wear fine clothes are in kingsʼ palaces. Then what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet"

Matthew 11:7-9

Jerry Falwell Jr does have some very nice suits
 
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jarredscott78 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
I think it is more a certain kind of Conservative libertarian who backs trump.

Oh good lord. This is tied (with 947 other opinions) for the most wrong you've ever been. Do you have one single clue about what libertarian means and how that compares to what Trump believes?



All you had to do was ship from inside Europe...
 
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Terwox wrote:
jarredscott78 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
I think it is more a certain kind of Conservative libertarian who backs trump.

Oh good lord. This is tied (with 947 other opinions) for the most wrong you've ever been. Do you have one single clue about what libertarian means and how that compares to what Trump believes?



All you had to do was ship from inside Europe...
All he had to do was read what I had written.
 
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slatersteven wrote:
All he had to do was read what I had written.

That's crazy talk!
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darthhugo wrote:
rinelk wrote:
Meerkat wrote:
So can we stop the Christian Bashing for the rest of this cycle?


No.

For the past five years or so, we've heard over and over again that Christian morality just isn't consequentialist. If Christians cannot be associated with baking a cake because the people who will celebrate with that cake are doing something they regard as immoral, even if laws which ensure free access to markets are good for society. Those arguments about the best consequences for all of us, we've long been told, are irrelevant because the consciences of Christians will not allow them to become complicit in sin. So the argument that it "makes sense in why they would hold their nose and vote Trump" requires that we assume they've been insincere this whole time about the content of their views on the religious foundations of morality. But how often have you defended that view of the rights of conscience of the religious right here in RSP?

Trump's not a jackass, he's a proudly self-proclaimed serial sex offender who was willing to brag about breaking one of the ten commandments WHILE WEARING A MICROPHONE. "Jackass" doesn't cut it. And his biggest supporters are conservative Christians. So, yes, there are many wonderful Christians who do not deserve to be tarred with support for Trump or for those organizations which support him (and even some of that support may be overstated). But what proportion of Trump's support comes from Christians? When people say that bigoted hate-driven Christians are behind Trump's success, who else do you think it is?


Exactly. A beeleeber who supports Trump really has lost any sympathy in their quest for the eternal dance remix soul party. Not that I had much belief in their reasoning abilities to begin with, but the sharp edges of their dissonance really are visible in this campaign.



... says the person who either doesn't care about monied influence in politics or will show the same sort of hypocrisy in voting for Hillary.
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