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Subject: SERIOUSLY!! rss

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Gerald Reston
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Sherman Leader plus the Update Kit for this game being DELAYED AGAIN?! I know you want to get Israeli Air Force Leader and Huey Leader off the ground at long last, but this has gone on for TOO long. You promised us that SL's Kickstarter would materialize before the year was over! TL will probably continue to go down in history as the weakest entry until that Kit FINALLY comes into view.

But on the flip side... This'll give me more time to work on my upcoming variant [which I put off for too long due to life matters, variants on other Leader titles and college]. You can read more about it [so far] here.
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1506564/my-tiger-leader-exp...

Sorry for snapping or anything, but I'm feeling a little peeved, that's all.
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mark mcleod
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Yep, not good.
I never went ahead and purchased Tiger Leader, thank god.
But a friend did and when I explain to him what's happening he wont be too pleased.
It's the case off them having your money so it sure wont be a priority for them.
Shame on you Dan and co.
Yes I might get some flack for saying that from some loyal DVG supporters but it's gone on too long now.
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Gerald Reston
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markmc wrote:
Yep, not good.
I never went ahead and purchased Tiger Leader, thank god.
But a friend did and when I explain to him what's happening he wont be too pleased.
It's the case off them having your money so it sure wont be a priority for them.
Shame on you Dan and co.
Yes I might get some flack for saying that from some loyal DVG supporters but it's gone on too long now.


Mark - I don't have TL either, and I wouldn't quite put it that way. But I'm certain that once the Update Kit comes along, I'll get my variant into full swing ASAP... And maybe I'll also apply a version of it to Sherman Leader as well, ha, ha, ha.
 
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Richard A. Edwards
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After buying TL, I decided not to buy any more DVG games until I got the update kit and see if they actually fixed this expensive game.

So I don't mind the delay since it's saving me lots of money!
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jeff
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markmc wrote:
...
Shame on you Dan and co.
Yes I might get some flack for saying that...


Not from me.... This is some of the worst customer service I have come across in this industry. I understand DVG is a small company and does not have the capital like FFG or GMT, but that is the reason they need to have an even closer relationship with their customer base. Their communication and ability to not burn a bridge is crap.

They should have bit the bullet and taken the loss to fix the game. They should have taken it upon themselves to ship that repair to every backer and made them available to retail customers upon request. If they had done so my shelves would be filled with their games like they are with GMT games...now I will never give them my money again, they have not earned it nor my trust.

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David J Schaffner
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I got railed by many devotees here on BGG, for a poor DVG customer service report I penned a few years back, before TL (well, get burned once shame on them, twice, shame on them again.....)
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Michael Andersch
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AvidHunter wrote:
DVG is a small company


To me, that's not an argument. Their games are not cheap, so I think every customer can expect a certain level of professional behaviour.

And - compared to GMT and such, they seem to be really small. But if compared with publishers I consider to be of similar size, DVG sucks.
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John Falcon

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I lost all faith in DVG and will never back another game from their company. Field Commander Napoleon was a high cred water mark but the tank has been draining ever since...
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Gerald Reston
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JP Falcon wrote:
I lost all faith in DVG and will never back another game from their company. Field Commander Napoleon was a high cred water mark but the tank has been draining ever since...


I'm more upset over the Upgrade Kit being held back than TL's rep - As IAFL looks like a fine return to the Flight Leader Series' [and to the franchise in general] roots.

You can read my coverage about Israeli Air Force Leader's upcoming Kickstarter here.
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1645738/coming-soon-kicksta...
 
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Fabrizio Perrone
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The WORST customer service all around: I never received my kickstarted "Warfighter" copy!
 
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NWS Wargaming Store
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I am helping with some last minute updates to the TL update kit and Sherman Leader right now. The top priority is making sure they are both brought up to par with the work done with the update kit - that is why the update kit was held up for the Sherman Leader print run in case of any last minute tweaks, changes, or improvements were made to the files.

One part the recent schedule that did slow down the works a bit was DVG being in the process of moving their facilities to a new location which ate up several weeks of labor time. My best estimate right now is that SL and the TL update kit should be pretty much finalized by the end of this week or sometime next week after all involved get a full chance to review and proof the components.

Note, this is not meant to be an official DVG response, just my personal perspective.

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Christopher Dean
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Oberon Sexton
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This is what I haven't understood since this while TL debacle. DVG is silent but NWS is the one addressing the situation. BAD customer service. The company should not have a vendor speak for them.
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Dan Verssen
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Here's an update on Tiger and Sherman...

Thank you Christopher for keeping communications open. I really appreciate it.

The plan is to KS Sherman in December and print the Tiger Upgrade kit at the same time. As promised, the Tiger Upgrade Kit will be added to all Sherman games, as well as being available direct from DVG at no charge, except for shipping.

The Tank Leader series got off to a difficult start due to my errors, but I think Sherman and the Tiger Upgrade Kit will get things back on track. I fully understand if you are skeptical, and I look forward to showing you the new games.
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"The company should not have a vendor speak for them."

Just to be clear.. DVG NEVER asked me to speak for them. All of my efforts are purely voluntary, on my own personal time, and I have asked for nothing in return. I am simply trying to keep fellow wargamers, as I am a wargamer of over 30+ years (including a military research, weapon systems, and battle history analysis background) like yourselves in the loop with unofficial information. As I am actively trying to help with the TL and SL combat systems and research I do have some information as to the progress of the projects which is what I was sharing with all of you. DVG has never asked me at ANYTIME to assist with communications. My posts are of my own free will and an attempt to help keep wargamers informed with progress reports. As a side note, and to be fair, DVG has posted several times over the past year about TL, the update kit, and SL on various threads. Maybe not as often as some would like but they have posted news on several occasions.

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Christopher Dean
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jeff
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DanVerssen wrote:
... except for shipping.


That is my issue always has been always will be until an update copy shows up in my mail box totally free. You put out a product that needed fixing and was under tested and possibly rushed. Granted your making steps to repair it, great, but you expect us to pay to have that item shipped. That ridiculous and poor customer service.

Step up to the plate bite the bullet, eat the expense and write it off as a cost of doing business. The good will of doing right for the Kickstarter backers would go miles further then the short term loss caused by sending it to us totally free of charge.

You want our future business and money... fix this issue first 100%
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jeff
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I call GMT.. Hi I opened my copy of Empire of the Sun and the map is peeling off of the mounting board.
They Say.. what's your info so we can send you out a new one ASAP, all costs on us.

I call Fantasy Flight.. Hi I don't know if you can do anything but this X-wing miniature I just bought is busted inside the package.
They Say.. We're so sorry what's your info so we can get a new one out to you

I contact Compass Games.. hey guys, I just wanted to comment and complain about the printing of the counter sheet #2 in the new release Enemy Action Ardennes. It's off set and the units are two colors.
They Say.. Yeah we know all about it, were having another print run done of those sheets and getting them out to everyone soon after.

I contact Decision games... the counter sheets in my edition of D-day at Tarawa are off set and the units are two colors.
They Say.. is it both sheets or just one? I'll get you a replacement in the mail right away.


but DVG wants me to pay to fix their error...

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Victorius Deplorable
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The Killing Joke wrote:
This is what I haven't understood since this while TL debacle. DVG is silent but NWS is the one addressing the situation. BAD customer service. The company should not have a vendor speak for them.


I think Chris is a fan just as much if not more, as he is a vendor.
 
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Victorius Deplorable
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AvidHunter wrote:
I call GMT.. Hi I opened my copy of Empire of the Sun and the map is peeling off of the mounting board.
They Say.. what's your info so we can send you out a new one ASAP, all costs on us.

I call Fantasy Flight.. Hi I don't know if you can do anything but this X-wing miniature I just bought is busted inside the package.
They Say.. We're so sorry what's your info so we can get a new one out to you

I contact Compass Games.. hey guys, I just wanted to comment and complain about the printing of the counter sheet #2 in the new release Enemy Action Ardennes. It's off set and the units are two colors.
They Say.. Yeah we know all about it, were having another print run done of those sheets and getting them out to everyone soon after.

I contact Decision games... the counter sheets in my edition of D-day at Tarawa are off set and the units are two colors.
They Say.. is it both sheets or just one? I'll get you a replacement in the mail right away.


but DVG wants me to pay to fix their error...



DVG is a smaller operation than those three. I'm not taking any sides btw, and I understand the frustration.
 
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Quote:
I think Chris is a fan just as much if not more, as he is a vendor.


Veteran wargamer and military researcher first and foremost.

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Christopher Dean
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Quote:
DVG is a smaller operation than those three. I'm not taking any sides btw, and I understand the frustration.


Much smaller.. basically a family unit business. As for myself I will toss in a copy of the update kit with any board game order placed on my store - barring it does not jump up the postage cost significantly, but I seriously doubt that would be the case. I think DVG would do the same without a problem. As to just sending it by itself.. I might have some ideas that might help save considerable costs for DVG that I can discuss with them but it would still be their decision and as stated by the quote above I will not take sides on this topic.

I would make a point about this part however.. the update kit involves more then just one misprinted counter sheet, map error, broken model that are produced by the thousands, or some other cosmetic issue. The update kit would involve updated rules, counters, and unit cards - the printing costs alone are expensive. With a verified printing error or model defect you can hit up the print or manufacturing companies to fix it.. that does not work for differing opinions covering a tactical wargaming system of which your covering for hundreds if not thousands of printed material update kits. That is yet another reason to hold until the printing of SL otherwise the costs could be considerably higher when compared to doing a bulk order print run.

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Christopher Dean
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jeff
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recon28501 wrote:

DVG is a smaller operation than those three. I'm not taking any sides btw, and I understand the frustration.


I get that...

AvidHunter wrote:
... I understand DVG is a small company and does not have the capital like FFG or GMT, but that is the reason they need to have an even closer relationship with their customer base. Their communication and ability to not burn a bridge is crap.

They should have bit the bullet and taken the loss to fix the game. They should have taken it upon themselves to ship that repair to every backer and made them available to retail customers upon request. If they had done so my shelves would be filled with their games like they are with GMT games....


Academy Games is a really small company. There was a whole slew of issues involving the Solo-generator that could be pre-ordered with a purchase of the second edition of Conflict of Heroes. I had to call their customer service department, I was totally mad that I never received my copy that I had paid for. Their such a small company that, that department is one person, the designers wife. I had a really long very interesting nice conversation with her during my work lunch. She was the nicest, most pleasant person, she made me feel better about the whole thing and assured me that she would fix the issue herself. I have no hesitation today buying any Academy Games product. They earned a loyal customer who has disposable cash.

My issue is not a matter of economics and the price of my paying for the shipping I can easily afford that. It's the principle of the fact that they burned us backers by putting out a half-assed product and expect more backers to pick up the cost of printing (the Sherman Leader backers) and us to pay for the shipping. That's not right...

If a client, or every client walked into the CPA firm I work at and told us that we made an error on their 1040 filing and we need to fix it we wouldn't turn around and put that expense on them. We would take the loss and find a way to pay for it, that's the cost of doing and being in business.

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Hi Jeff.. no offense, and again not taking sides - this is just a personal perspective as a fellow wargamer.

I still think your example differs then this situation as making a mistake on a tax form could be a legal matter (seen it happen) and does not typically cost thousands in postage and printing costs to resolve unless there are costs for legal action or fines involved. I cannot speak for the AG situation without some idea of their inner workings and costs involved for resolution.

I do know DVG is already going to eat hundreds, if not thousands, in printing costs to resolve a matter of *opinion* about the combat system of a game. I say opinion - and I have tracked many feedback posts over the past year about the game while working on the update kit - because some are ok with the game as is and some are not. I decided to ratchet up the realism a few notches on my own at first, and then decided to share those ideas to see what others and DVG thought about them and now there is an update kit to work from that is also being used for SL. Many publishers might have just put off a list of improvements, errata, or edits for a "2nd edition" (seen that done many times in the miniature, PC, and board game market) instead of a complete kit for free.

So I think DVG is doing what is thought to be financially feasible for their operations.. some may agree, some may not. To each their own as I am only adding some additional perspective as I have also published printed wargames in the past and it is extremely expensive. Again, not defending either side nor am I taking sides.

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Christopher Dean
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Victorius Deplorable
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AvidHunter wrote:
recon28501 wrote:

DVG is a smaller operation than those three. I'm not taking any sides btw, and I understand the frustration.


I get that...

AvidHunter wrote:
... I understand DVG is a small company and does not have the capital like FFG or GMT, but that is the reason they need to have an even closer relationship with their customer base. Their communication and ability to not burn a bridge is crap.

They should have bit the bullet and taken the loss to fix the game. They should have taken it upon themselves to ship that repair to every backer and made them available to retail customers upon request. If they had done so my shelves would be filled with their games like they are with GMT games....


Academy Games is a really small company. There was a whole slew of issues involving the Solo-generator that could be pre-ordered with a purchase of the second edition of Conflict of Heroes. I had to call their customer service department, I was totally mad that I never received my copy that I had paid for. Their such a small company that, that department is one person, the designers wife. I had a really long very interesting nice conversation with her during my work lunch. She was the nicest, most pleasant person, she made me feel better about the whole thing and assured me that she would fix the issue herself. I have no hesitation today buying any Academy Games product. They earned a loyal customer who has disposable cash.

My issue is not a matter of economics and the price of my paying for the shipping I can easily afford that. It's the principle of the fact that they burned us backers by putting out a half-assed product and expect more backers to pick up the cost of printing (the Sherman Leader backers) and us to pay for the shipping. That's not right...

If a client, or every client walked into the CPA firm I work at and told us that we made an error on their 1040 filing and we need to fix it we wouldn't turn around and put that expense on them. We would take the loss and find a way to pay for it, that's the cost of doing and being in business.



Is Tiger Leader in its current state unplayable?
 
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Oberon Sexton
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The issue is not with you responding, the issue that there was no word from DVG. Bad business. I'M tired of hearing they are a small company. If you are small, you should be better prepared to deal with customer issues ND respond to the issues rather than let someone else speak for you. Dan sure is busy on face book talking about all the new games coming to kickstarter but no mention of TL update. How does that make sense?
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The Killing Joke wrote:
The issue is not with you responding, the issue that there was no word from DVG. Bad business. I'M tired of hearing they are a small company. If you are small, you should be better prepared to deal with customer issues ND respond to the issues rather than let someone else speak for you. Dan sure is busy on face book talking about all the new games coming to kickstarter but no mention of TL update. How does that make sense?


All I can tell you is that they have responded before, and they just responded again on this thread. Not sure how much more they can repeat the same information until it gets done, or there is other major news to report, at this point. BTW, as a family business other members of the family may be handling PR for the upcoming titles.. only Dan, Rick, and myself would have direct details regarding the TL update kit and SL. Others might be involved with testing but not with errata, mechanics, printing, etc.. No offense intended.

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Christopher Dean
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