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Kingdom Death: Monster» Forums » Rules

Subject: Weird Butcher infinite loop rss

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zsolt bertalan
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So, we were getting Butchered last night, but fought back bravely until something weird happened.
I am the monster controller, two figures are dead and my char and another figure are hidden in a patch of tall grass.
The last card in the Butcher's AI deck is 'Kick', which makes for a usual killing streak infinite loop. But in this case there are no targets, so he just menaces, until the end of the world? We have Society Principle Accept Darkness, so no deaths through BT...

In the end, we just exchanged 'Kick' for another discarded AI card and through some awesome dice luck, he managed to survive my char, but not the last survivor...
 
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Stevenson Junior
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In case of endless kick menace he has successfully killed your party due to inevitable results of
11 on Brain Trauma table: get priority token
12 on Brain Trauma table: your survivors have slowly gained random disorders til they get fourth ones and died
 
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TechRaptor Travis
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Actually, with only one Kick, the Butcher would Kick and then perform his basic action.

Ooops. Yeah, I got this one wrong.
 
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gorbad6 wrote:
So, we were getting Butchered last night, but fought back bravely until something weird happened.
I am the monster controller, two figures are dead and my char and another figure are hidden in a patch of tall grass.
The last card in the Butcher's AI deck is 'Kick', which makes for a usual killing streak infinite loop. But in this case there are no targets, so he just menaces, until the end of the world? We have Society Principle Accept Darkness, so no deaths through BT...

In the end, we just exchanged 'Kick' for another discarded AI card and through some awesome dice luck, he managed to survive my char, but not the last survivor...


You'd still die from brain trauma since you take 1 physical damage each time your roll is 5-6 (3-4 with Accept Darkness).
 
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NerdyRaptor wrote:
Actually, with only one Kick, the Butcher would Kick and then perform his basic action.


That is incorrect.
 
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Lonny x
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cormor321 wrote:
NerdyRaptor wrote:
Actually, with only one Kick, the Butcher would Kick and then perform his basic action.


That is incorrect.


This is right, you do not do the basic action. You just keep drawing kick and it becomes an infinite loop. I house rule this one and I do what the OP did and sub in another card. This goes against the rules but I'm not a fan of infinite loops.
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malkaven wrote:
cormor321 wrote:
NerdyRaptor wrote:
Actually, with only one Kick, the Butcher would Kick and then perform his basic action.


That is incorrect.


This is right, you do not do the basic action. You just keep drawing kick and it becomes an infinite loop. I house rule this one and I do what the OP did and sub in another card. This goes against the rules but I'm not a fan of infinite loops.


It's not an infinite loop though. It's a very short loop ending with you being dead.
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TechRaptor Travis
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Styfen wrote:
To provide the FAQ answer that people are referring to:

Quote:
The last card in the monster's AI deck instructs it to "draw AI." Does this form an infinite loop?

Yes. A card is resolved when there are no actions left on it to perform. However, "If an AI card contains an action to 'draw AI,' complete any applicable actions on the current AI card before drawing and playing a new AI card" (p.69, Core Game Book). Thus, cards that end with this text are resolved in the following order:

1. Play card
2. Reach Draw AI action on card
3. Card is resolved and discarded
4. Draw AI action is performed

If the last cards in the monster's AI deck instruct it to "draw AI," it will continue to draw and play them over and over again until it kills everyone or performs its instinct. Keep an eye on the monster's discard pile to ensure this doesn't happen to you!


http://www.kingdomdeath.com/wp/faq/

Just a gentle push here, if you're going to say things about rules one way or the other, please remember to cite the sources (FAQ, rulebook page etc). It's a lot better for other people coming in to the thread as it immediately provides a definitive answer that they can identify the official source.


...and you can avoid having egg on your face.

Thanks Styfen.
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TechRaptor Travis
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gorbad6 wrote:
So, we were getting Butchered last night, but fought back bravely until something weird happened.
I am the monster controller, two figures are dead and my char and another figure are hidden in a patch of tall grass.
The last card in the Butcher's AI deck is 'Kick', which makes for a usual killing streak infinite loop. But in this case there are no targets, so he just menaces, until the end of the world? We have Society Principle Accept Darkness, so no deaths through BT...

In the end, we just exchanged 'Kick' for another discarded AI card and through some awesome dice luck, he managed to survive my char, but not the last survivor...


So, back to the original question; the infinite loop closes once there are no targets and the monster performs its instinct, So in the OP's case, the loop would close as soon as the Butcher performed Menace.
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Stevenson Junior
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NerdyRaptor wrote:

So, back to the original question; the infinite loop closes once there are no targets and the monster performs its instinct, So in the OP's case, the loop would close as soon as the Butcher performed Menace.


Kick card
1) Pick Target (priority 1, priority 2, priority 3: menace)
2) Draw AI

Therefore Butcher will continue Kick-Menacing til targets are all dead because Brain Traumas 3-12 still kill people over time.
 
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TechRaptor Travis
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StevensonJunior wrote:
NerdyRaptor wrote:

So, back to the original question; the infinite loop closes once there are no targets and the monster performs its instinct, So in the OP's case, the loop would close as soon as the Butcher performed Menace.


Kick card
1) Pick Target (priority 1, priority 2, priority 3: menace)
2) Draw AI

Therefore Butcher will continue Kick-Menacing til targets are all dead because Brain Traumas 3-12 still kill people over time.


Per page 68 referring to reaching the "no target" condition:

Quote:
When this is reached, instead of performing any other action on the card, discard it and perform the indicated no target action or rule. This is most often the monster's instinct.


Also supported by the faq (emphasis mine here):

Quote:
If the last cards in the monster's AI deck instruct it to "draw AI," it will continue to draw and play them over and over again until it kills everyone or performs its instinct. Keep an eye on the monster's discard pile to ensure this doesn't happen to you!
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Zombie Marcs
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"Keep an eye on the monster's discard pile to ensure this doesn't happen to you!"

I thought you put the discard pile face down, and not allowed to know what cards where in it?!
 
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Stuart Martyn
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That's the wound stack. You know what's in the discard pile because, well, it happened.
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Drew Olds
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Another option you have is to surge- if you can cause even one point of damage while his card is in play, the Butcher will die.

NerdyRaptor wrote:
Actually, with only one Kick, the Butcher would Kick and then perform his basic action.

Ooops. Yeah, I got this one wrong.


It's cool- the core rules say that one kick would only kick once (since you need to finish the card before drawing another one).

The FAQ changes that- but in some places, it clearly gets some rules wrong (like Saviors immune to King's Curse) and overall it is often less clear than the core rules, and has caused rules arguments about things we didn't have a question about. So I've decided the whole thing is untrustworthy.
 
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Kyle Currie
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Personally I just house rule this to perform the basic action after 1 Kick. I know that goes against official ruling but it doesn't feel like this super cheap attack loop.
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Henry Akeley
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Where does it say your survivors die if they get a fourth disorder? That is not correct.
 
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TechRaptor Travis
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Epidemius wrote:
Where does it say your survivors die if they get a fourth disorder? That is not correct.


On the Brain Trauma table, if you roll a 12.

"Clarity. You are knocked down. Add your current survival to insanity and reduce your survival to 0. Gain a random disorder. If you already have 3 disorders, you die."
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Henry Akeley
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NerdyRaptor wrote:
Epidemius wrote:
Where does it say your survivors die if they get a fourth disorder? That is not correct.


On the Brain Trauma table, if you roll a 12.

"Clarity. You are knocked down. Add your current survival to insanity and reduce your survival to 0. Gain a random disorder. If you already have 3 disorders, you die."


Thanks. I was thinking someone was saying as part of the general rules set.
 
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zsolt bertalan
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Thanks for the extensive discussion! Playing strictly according to the rules, I see now that the situation would end in a tpk eventually ( drawn out by monster-controller and bt boni to insanity )
On the other hand, I think I'd still prefer to have the more thematic solution. The Butcher would not just stand around and menace the crap out of some bushes.
 
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Alessio Massuoli
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After he's done menacing, he pops out from the bushes and carves out the faces of everyone. He is also sort of tidy.
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Javier Arteagoitia Garcia
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gorbad6 wrote:
Thanks for the extensive discussion! Playing strictly according to the rules, I see now that the situation would end in a tpk eventually ( drawn out by monster-controller and bt boni to insanity )
On the other hand, I think I'd still prefer to have the more thematic solution. The Butcher would not just stand around and menace the crap out of some bushes.


@TechRaptor Travis already clarified this, using the FAQs and the basic rules.

When a monster does it's Instinct due to No Target, it skips playing the rest of the card, therefore there wouldn't be an infinite loop unless you keep hiding in the bushes all the time.
 
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Stevie P
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Not to beat a dead survivor, but should a result on a table be the overall global ruling or just what happens when you roll that result?

I screwed up the quote. This is reference to the clarity comment.
 
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It's just what happens for result 12 on the brain trauma table - clarity. Means even Accept Darkness settlements have a chance of dying to brain trauma
 
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Alessio Massuoli
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Yup, however there are ways to stop gaining disorders, so you can actually become immune to damage, eventually.
 
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