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Subject: Component request for Enlist rss

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Jeff Chunko
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I finally got around to playing this. The bits seem well thought out, but I couldn't help wishing that there was one addition. I'd love to have pairs of small tokens or cards that I could pass my neighbors to remind them to remind me when they take an action that would trigger my enlist bonus. It's a bit of a pain to try to keep track across the table.

They could place it below their matching action, and it would help remind them.
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Jason Brown
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If the icon above the action isn't reminder enough to both announce the action and pay attention during other players' turns, I'm not sure a card is going to help.
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Greg
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This is something that anyone can certainly find something to use if they want. Poker chips, pennies or whatever. Easy peasy.

I've got 12 plays in and this hasn't been an issue for the various groups I've played with. When I teach the game and explain this part of it, I tell people to announce their actions, and particularly the bottom actions as people start enlisting.

So for example, I'd say "taking the build action, do either of you get a bonus from your enlist?"

Has worked well enough. To me, this is basically the same as me passing them a toke to remind them that I took that action.
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steve w
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Jeff Chunko wrote:

It's a bit of a pain to try to keep track across the table.


Across the table? You only get the bonus from the players to your left and right, I am imagining a 4P game here and wondering if you arent playing it wrong?
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Chris Laudermilk
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Chester Steve wrote:
Jeff Chunko wrote:

It's a bit of a pain to try to keep track across the table.


Across the table? You only get the bonus from the players to your left and right, I am imagining a 4P game here and wondering if you arent playing it wrong?

Came to say this.

With enlist, there is a 2 step way to make sure you get your bonuses:
1) Everyone announces what they are doing. E.g., "I am moving, then I am deploying."
2) Pay attention to the game so you hear when step 1 is done by the players to your right and left.

If you are not paying enough attention to be sure you get the bonus, then it falls under "you snooze, you lose" IMHO.
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claudermilk wrote:
Chester Steve wrote:
Jeff Chunko wrote:

It's a bit of a pain to try to keep track across the table.


Across the table? You only get the bonus from the players to your left and right, I am imagining a 4P game here and wondering if you arent playing it wrong?

Came to say this.

With enlist, there is a 2 step way to make sure you get your bonuses:
1) Everyone announces what they are doing. E.g., "I am moving, then I am deploying."
2) Pay attention to the game so you hear when step 1 is done by the players to your right and left.

If you are not paying enough attention to be sure you get the bonus, then it falls under "you snooze, you lose" IMHO.


In general I believe it is each player's responsibility to be sufficiently clear on what action they are taking. None of this "Shadow turn" where you can miss what someone did.

Since the rules are clear that taking benefits is optional I agree with "you snooze, you lose" unlike other games where these benefits are non-optional in which case I'd say just take it delayed if you are sure you missed it and take nothing if you can't remember/are not sure.
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Jeff Chunko
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Chester Steve wrote:
Jeff Chunko wrote:

It's a bit of a pain to try to keep track across the table.


Across the table? You only get the bonus from the players to your left and right, I am imagining a 4P game here and wondering if you arent playing it wrong?


So you guys always play on a square table perfectly sized for the game?
I'm suspecting many people end up on a rectangular table with at least one pairing across the table from each other.
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Jeff Chunko
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claudermilk wrote:
Chester Steve wrote:
Jeff Chunko wrote:

It's a bit of a pain to try to keep track across the table.


Across the table? You only get the bonus from the players to your left and right, I am imagining a 4P game here and wondering if you arent playing it wrong?

Came to say this.

With enlist, there is a 2 step way to make sure you get your bonuses:
1) Everyone announces what they are doing. E.g., "I am moving, then I am deploying."
2) Pay attention to the game so you hear when step 1 is done by the players to your right and left.

If you are not paying enough attention to be sure you get the bonus, then it falls under "you snooze, you lose" IMHO.


I'm glad I don't play with you. Do you really want to encourage people to play slower so they can always double check they didn't miss out? What fun you must have.

If you're not interested in this idea, you really don't have to post to tell me.
 
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Jon Bowker
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Jeff Chunko wrote:
Do you really want to encourage people to play slower so they can always double check they didn't miss out?

This isn't "playing slower" it's paying attention when it's not your turn. You see what your neighbor did and you respond by saying "please give [color] a [dollar/power/popularity/combat card]. I'm not discounting your need for something that assists your play group, but I too am confused how you don't notice when your neighbor does something that benefits you. If I'm waiting for my opponent to do something specific, I watch for it to happen and not rely on them to offer me my benefit. Just a different point of view I suppose.
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Christopher Seguin
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proclaimed wrote:
Jeff Chunko wrote:
Do you really want to encourage people to play slower so they can always double check they didn't miss out?

This isn't "playing slower" it's paying attention when it's not your turn. You see what your neighbor did and you respond by saying "please give [color] a [dollar/power/popularity/combat card]. I'm not discounting your need for something that assists your play group, but I too am confused how you don't notice when your neighbor does something that benefits you. If I'm waiting for my opponent to do something specific, I watch for it to happen and not rely on them to offer me my benefit. Just a different point of view I suppose.


How can this NOT be a regular habit for everyone at the table? Do people frequently not pay attention to what others are doing? Seems odd, really.

I mean, the whole point of playing board games with people is to "interact" and "engage", which includes knowing what other people are doing even when it isn't your turn. Are people who are not paying attention looking at the phones, checking internet pr0n sights, or other such distractions that they don't "play" the game with everyone at the table?

Such interaction and paying attention may be less important in some games such as Scrabble or Dominion, but in a game like Scythe you HAVE TO pay attention to what everyone is doing nearly all the time. Scythe is particularly difficult to strategize if you aren't constantly watching what others are doing - especially when it comes to the Enlist bonus!

I have only played Scythe twice, and both with more than three players. Which means inevitably I am constantly looking across the table at the one non-adjacent opponent to check to see if he is taking the "bottom action", only to quickly be reminded by him to "shut up, you aren't sitting next to me!" Damn you, Pat, foiled again!
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Jeff Chunko
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chrisnd wrote:

I mean, the whole point of playing board games with people is to "interact" and "engage", which includes knowing what other people are doing even when it isn't your turn. Are people who are not paying attention looking at the phones, checking internet pr0n sights, or other such distractions that they don't "play" the game with everyone at the table?


No, they're doing things like trying to plan their turn. Or going to the bathroom. Or, gasp, talking to people that they are playing the game to socialize with.

Adding the bits would also make it easier for the person whose turn it was to know if the action they chose would benefit their neighbors or not without them taking time to lean across the board to see if I had built that specific upgrade.

You may not think this would help you. That's fine. But stop telling me it wouldn't help my group.
 
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Jeff Chunko
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Hahma wrote:
This is something that anyone can certainly find something to use if they want. Poker chips, pennies or whatever. Easy peasy.


Sure. But this game has fancy bits. And it has lots of people who seem to enjoy making bits to make it fancier. For someone skilled and interested it's only a few moments work to whip something up. Repeatedly telling me that you don't want to do it and don't think it's needed isn't helpful in any way, shape, or form.
 
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Greg
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Jeff Chunko wrote:
Hahma wrote:
This is something that anyone can certainly find something to use if they want. Poker chips, pennies or whatever. Easy peasy.


Sure. But this game has fancy bits. And it has lots of people who seem to enjoy making bits to make it fancier. For someone skilled and interested it's only a few moments work to whip something up. Repeatedly telling me that you don't want to do it and don't think it's needed isn't helpful in any way, shape, or form.


A.) You didn't ask for someone to whip up some tokens for you.

B.) I didn't repeatedly tell you I don't want to do it or think it's needed. I made one post and offered some simple solutions.

Sorry I'm not the Scythe expert you are after one play.
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Jeff Chunko
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Hahma wrote:

A.) You didn't ask for someone to whip up some tokens for you.


That's where the title "component request for Enlist" comes in. whistle
 
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Was George Orwell an Optimist?
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Jeff Chunko wrote:
claudermilk wrote:
Chester Steve wrote:
Jeff Chunko wrote:

It's a bit of a pain to try to keep track across the table.


Across the table? You only get the bonus from the players to your left and right, I am imagining a 4P game here and wondering if you arent playing it wrong?

Came to say this.

With enlist, there is a 2 step way to make sure you get your bonuses:
1) Everyone announces what they are doing. E.g., "I am moving, then I am deploying."
2) Pay attention to the game so you hear when step 1 is done by the players to your right and left.

If you are not paying enough attention to be sure you get the bonus, then it falls under "you snooze, you lose" IMHO.


I'm glad I don't play with you. Do you really want to encourage people to play slower so they can always double check they didn't miss out? What fun you must have.

I'm pretty sure I'd rather play with him than you. Why should it be somebody else's job to make sure you get your stuff? Each of us being responsible for collecting our own makes better sense to me.
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Adria D
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I don't feel they're necessary. It's not hard to announce what I'm doing, perhaps along with the names of my neighbors to get their attention. As the game teacher, I've been reminding my neighbors to take their Recruit bonuses through most plays.

Also, I don't think one pair of components would be enough. You'd probably need 4 pairs - one for each Recruit bonus/bottom-row action. If you just have a pair, you'd give them away when you take your first Enlist action. Then when your neighbors take a bottom row action, they'd have to either

1. tell you they're doing a bottom row action and leave you to figure out if you get the Recruit bonus

or

2. look at your board, determine if you qualify for the Recruit bonus corresponding to their bottom-row action, then tell you to take your bonus

#1 can be done without tokens. I already do it. Extra tokens are not needed for this.

#2 transfers the burden of play/remembrance/whatever from the person getting the bonus to someone else. I don't like this. If I get a bonus when certain things happen, it's my responsibility to keep on top of that and take that bonus when appropriate. If my neighbor announces that they're taking a bottom row action for which I should get a Recruit bonus, and I ignore their announcement or don't check in when I get back from a bathroom break, then missing out is only my fault.

Instead of one pair of tokens/cards, you could have 4 pairs of tokens or cards to give your neighbors, each one labeled with a bottom row action. Then whenever someone takes a bottom row action, they'd also have to sort through a pile of tokens/cards to then tell their neighbors to take their bonuses. Again, this puts the onus on the player causing the bonuses to happen rather than the players earning the bonuses.


And FYI: the bottom row actions are in the same order on every player board. Knowing that might save you some leaning across the table to see what your neighbor did. Just look at where their pawn is, then look at the corresponding panel on your board.
 
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Greg
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Jeff Chunko wrote:
Hahma wrote:

A.) You didn't ask for someone to whip up some tokens for you.


That's where the title "component request for Enlist" comes in. whistle


Ideas, thoughts etc. Not asking someone to make you some. Ask it in the OP, makes it clearer what you want. "Could someone please make some tokens for me?"

I offered ideas such as poker chips or pennies. Simple things, though other things could have been used.

Whatever
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Jeff Chunko
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Adria wrote:
I don't feel they're necessary. It's not hard to announce what I'm doing, perhaps along with the names of my neighbors to get their attention. As the game teacher, I've been reminding my neighbors to take their Recruit bonuses through most plays.

Also, I don't think one pair of components would be enough. You'd probably need 4 pairs - one for each Recruit bonus/bottom-row action.


Yes, I thought that was self evident that you would need two tokens for each enlist action.

But I literally cannot believe how many people are so excited to tell me that something my group thinks would help them, would not. This thread was not meant for you. Really. The closest thing to a helpful post was from the guy who thought we might be misplaying and allowing bonuses not just for our direct neighbors.

I play with friendly gamers. We help each other follow the rules. We don't try to screw people who might forget or not notice things. Because games are supposed to be fun. Winning a game because Bob's wife texted him and and he forgot to claim all his resources is not a triumph.

 
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Ah, guys. Okay. This isn't the type of community I want to foster, so I'm going to interject here.

Jeff: You expressed an idea for a component you wish the game had. It's totally fine for you to wish that. I'm not going to make it, but if you want to create something like that to share here, you should do that. People are more likely to see that the idea has merit if they're able to see it in practice--that way you're showing that you're invested in making Scythe better. Or you can just leave it as an idea for discussion--that's okay too. But if you do that, you need to be open to criticism from other people who read it.

People who love Scythe the way it is and don't see the need this component idea:
That's totally fine too (and I really appreciate your passion for it). I understand why you may have had a defensive reaction to Jeff's comment, as the post does criticize an element of Scythe and proposes a change after a single play. But if you love Scythe, it's important for you to be welcoming of people who are just trying it for the first time--that's the best way to show your love for it. Usually that translates to sharing your experiences or helping someone understand a rule that the person may have misunderstood--several of you did that. But sometimes it also means simply not commenting at all (that's what I did after first reading Jeff's idea).

Cool? Cool. Here's a photo of my cats this morning:

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During one of my plays of a 4 player game, one of our players bought out a set of penny tokens to do the same thing the OP has suggested to keep track of the enlist bonus. For that player it seemed to help him keep track of the enlist bonus (I was his neighbor), but for me the extra tokens on my player board did not seem to have any meaning as to what they were they for after I forgot about them.

here is a post that suggest a DIY token maker
https://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/507240/making-circular-...
 
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Thomas Büttner-Zimmermann
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Hi Jeff,

Just one question: has your group already realized, that the bottom row actions are in the same order on each board? So I can simply look, if someone is performing an "Upgrade" if I have already "enlisted" the recruit on my upgrade bottom row action.
Please don't take my question as offense! None meant!!


But back to your question:
The simplest solution I can imagine are wooden discs in 5 colors (7, if you plan to buy the expansion, too).
The colors are matching the player faction colors.
Also, you need 8 discs of each color.

Each player gets the eight discs of his or her color at the beginning of the game. Whenever she or he is enlisting, he gives one disc to the player on his right and one disc to he player on his left. So they can place this disc below their bottom row action and now easily see, that - for example - the Nordic Kingdoms, blue, have enlisted the recruit on the Upgrade bottom row action.

Wouldn't that help?
 
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Christopher Seguin
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Jeff Chunko wrote:
chrisnd wrote:

I mean, the whole point of playing board games with people is to "interact" and "engage", which includes knowing what other people are doing even when it isn't your turn. Are people who are not paying attention looking at the phones, checking internet pr0n sights, or other such distractions that they don't "play" the game with everyone at the table?


No, they're doing things like trying to plan their turn. Or going to the bathroom. Or, gasp, talking to people that they are playing the game to socialize with.

Adding the bits would also make it easier for the person whose turn it was to know if the action they chose would benefit their neighbors or not without them taking time to lean across the board to see if I had built that specific upgrade.

You may not think this would help you. That's fine. But stop telling me it wouldn't help my group.


I most certainly did no such thing!

On the contrary, I only asked what people were doing during other players' turns in lieu of "paying attention" to the game - especially as it relates to a heavy strategy game such as Scythe.

In light of Jamey's most recent contribution to this thread, that is all I have to say about this matter.
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Trevor Taylor
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Jeff Chunko wrote:

I finally got around to playing this. The bits seem well thought out, but I couldn't help wishing that there was one addition. I'd love to have pairs of small tokens or cards that I could pass my neighbors to remind them to remind me when they take an action that would trigger my enlist bonus. It's a bit of a pain to try to keep track across the table.

They could place it below their matching action, and it would help remind them.


In any game I play I encourage players (especially in games with complex actions) to announce the basics of what they're doing on their move. If they do this in your game, you can just listen for when a player states they are doing an 'enlist' action (or any other bottom row action).
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Frank Hamrick
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Our group doesn't try to be sly or devious when taking the bottom action. Once players start using Enlist, they announce publicly that they now have recruited 'X', so that their neighbors are aware. From that point on, everyone publicly announces their bottom action to make certain their neighbors know (sometimes we're all engrossed in planning our next move and don't know what our neighbor is doing).

Further, if my neighbor is away from the table when I take the bottom action I check their board to see if they get the bonus and if so, give it to them while they are away. We let them know what happened when they return in case they refuse the bonus (for whatever reason).

Each player plays to win, but in a fair, not covert way.

I find the simple announcement to your neighbors of your bottom action is all that needs to be done. Once everyone gets in the habit and spirit of doing this, the game flows smoothly and it doesn't take a bit more time.
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Eric Hogue
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Jeff Chunko wrote:

I finally got around to playing this. The bits seem well thought out, but I couldn't help wishing that there was one addition. I'd love to have pairs of small tokens or cards that I could pass my neighbors to remind them to remind me when they take an action that would trigger my enlist bonus. It's a bit of a pain to try to keep track across the table.

They could place it below their matching action, and it would help remind them.


Meeple source is selling alternative worker meeples. Buy eight sets of them. You have 4 four your left-hand neighbor and 4 for you right-hand neighbor, one for each possible enlistment.
 
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