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Subject: Can you negate the Carnivore trait with Intelligence? rss

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Chris Mabry
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I am a Carnivore with Intelligence.

Question 1: Can I negate the Carnivore trait with the Intelligence trait?

Question 1a: If yes, can my attack still complete since my Carnivore trait is now being ignored and technically only Carnivores can attack.

Question 1b: If my attack can still complete, do traits like Scavenger and Horns not activate their effects because they are contingent upon me being a Carnivore which was negated.

I'm pretty sure I know the answer is that you cannot negate the Carnivore trait. Or that if you do negate the Carnivore trait, nothing really changes and you can still complete the attack and all traits like Horns/Scavenger will still trigger and you essentially just wasted a card.
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anevil giraffe
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Don't you negate other species traits - with the intention that you get round their defences and so on...

However, if you can negate your own carnivore trait, what are you attacking with in the first place?

(I don't own the game myself, but played recently, so may be misremembering)
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Scott Yavorski
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Pretty sure intelligence even says something to the effect of "discard a card to negate a trait on a species you've attacked". Not the best wording, but pretty sure yes, you can only negate a trait on a species you're attacking, not attacking WITH.
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Trevor Schadt
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anevilgiraffe wrote:
Don't you negate other species traits - with the intention that you get round their defences and so on...
That's clearly the intention of the rule. That being said, how the rule is intended and how people want to choose to interpret it have never been the same thing here on BoardGameGeek.
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Trevor Schadt
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Ciffy wrote:
Pretty sure intelligence even says something to the effect of "discard a card to negate a trait on a species you've attacked". Not the best wording, but pretty sure yes, you can only negate a trait on a species you're attacking, not attacking WITH.
Alas, I checked, and the card text is "Negate 1 Trait card for this species' next attack."
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Chris Mabry
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Ciffy wrote:
Pretty sure intelligence even says something to the effect of "discard a card to negate a trait on a species you've attacked". Not the best wording, but pretty sure yes, you can only negate a trait on a species you're attacking, not attacking WITH.


It just says you negate a trait actually. It most definitely DOES NOT have to be on the species you attack. Otherwise, it could never penetrate Warning Call. It also is meant to be used to negate Scavenger on species that you aren't attacking.

Quote:
A player with Intelligence has the option to discard one or more cards from his hand during any of his feeding turns to gain one of the following effects:

[Effect 1 only relevant to non-Carnivores]

[Effect 2:] If the species with Intelligence is a Carnivore, each discarded card negates all copies of 1 Trait card for the species' next attack (for instance, if Warning Call is on both sides of a species or if there are multiple copies of Scavenger in play).
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Chris Mabry
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ryudoowaru wrote:
Ciffy wrote:
Pretty sure intelligence even says something to the effect of "discard a card to negate a trait on a species you've attacked". Not the best wording, but pretty sure yes, you can only negate a trait on a species you're attacking, not attacking WITH.
That's clearly the intention of the rule. That being said, how the rule is intended and how people want to choose to interpret it have never been the same thing here on BoardGameGeek.


I'm not trying to be difficult...it actually has an impact on your decisions. For example...

If I am allowed to choose to negate Carnivore and that in effect "interrupts" my attack...then it might be advantageous to do this! It could be advantageous because I might be forced to feed on my own species for a feeding turn, but if I'm allowed to discard a card to negate Carnivore, I can avoid that by causing this "interruption". Then, during my friend's next turn, the action they take gives me a new species to feed on (that is not my own). So then on my next feeding turn, I don't have to eat my own species. The reason I don't think you can do this is because the feeding rules say "you MUST feed one of your species", but that doesn't necessarily mean you cannot negate the Carnivore trait.

Now, if the ruling is that you cannot negate Carnivore at all, then the rules should be updated to reflect that, in my opinion.

If the ruling is that you can negate carnivore but everything else goes as normal (your attack completing, Horns triggering etc.) then okay, that's fine too because then there is never a reason to use Intelligence to negate Carnivore and the question becomes moot.
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Pierre Beri
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I’m pretty sure the spirit is that you cannot negate Carnivore. Being intelligent does not mean you can instantly change your digestive system just like that.

Otherwise you would create a physiologico-legal paradox.

- I discard a card so that my intelligent carnivore negates Carnivore.
- So that your what?
- My carnivore.
- But it’s no longer a carnivore this round.
- Damn, so my discard does not actually negate a trait.
- Yup.
- Damn. So my Carnivore trait was not negated and this guy is still a carnivore.
- Yup.
- So I can discard a card so that my carnivore negates Carnivore.
- …
- …
- Get out. Now!
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Chris Mabry
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beri2 wrote:
I’m pretty sure the spirit is that you cannot negate Carnivore. Being intelligent does not mean you can instantly change your digestive system just like that.

Otherwise you would create a physiologico-legal paradox.

- I discard a card so that my intelligent carnivore negates Carnivore.
- So that your what?
- My carnivore.
- But it’s no longer a carnivore this round.
- Damn, so my discard does not actually negate a trait.
- Yup.
- Damn. So my Carnivore trait was not negated and this guy is still a carnivore.
- Yup.
- So I can discard a card so that my carnivore negates Carnivore.
- …
- …
- Get out. Now!


I certainly don't disagree with you. In all seriousness, I haven't brought this up in one of my games, but I noticed in my last game it could have been advantageous so I posted it here since I couldn't find anything in the rules that provided me with a definitive answer.

I'm still waiting for the "Troll" promo trait though.
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Paul Wise
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Dominic is usually pretty quick to respond to questions. This is an interesting one, which I've never even considered. I look forward to hearing what he has to say about it.
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Eric Harman
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Thats not the only paradox. The carnivore version of intelligence triggers on attack. Non-carnivores can't attack.

I think the proper interpretation of this possible strangeness is pretty apparent.
You can't negate carnivore with intelligence, it causes too many issues.
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Pierre Beri
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Also, a scavenging intelligent carnivore negating itself the extra meat is, thematically, a bit strange.

It can be intelligent enough to deny other species the bones and skin, but not dumb enough not to take these bones and skin for itself.
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Jordan Booth
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My 2

Intelligence says to discard a card (now) to get an effect during the next attack (later), so you can legally target carnivore because the effect doesn't remove the target until after the effect resolves.

At the moment you declare an attack with your carnivore, the effect triggers and it is no longer a carnivore. It now does not posses the required traits to succeed at an attack, so it fails. No other cards that depend on successful attacks are triggered.

I'm still undecided if I would allow the temporarily non-carnivore take food from the watering hole, or if the feeding turn was already declared as an attack and so they get nothing.
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Dominic Crapuchettes
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I think somebody used Intelligence to negate their intelligence! Hahaha! laugh laugh laugh

Just kidding. That's a great question and we took up entirely too much of our work day discussing it last week. In the end, we decided it was problematic and unthematic to negate Carnivore. Even further, we're considering changing the wording so Intelligence negates 1 defensive trait during their next attack. It would remove the very cool play of negating Scavenger (which almost never happens) in favor of making the card cleaner and more self explanatory for everyone.
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Chris Mabry
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domcrap wrote:
I think somebody used Intelligence to negate their intelligence! Hahaha! laugh laugh laugh

Just kidding. That's a great question and we took up entirely too much of our work day discussing it last week. In the end, we decided it was problematic and unthematic to negate Carnivore. Even further, we're considering changing the wording so Intelligence negates 1 defensive trait during their next attack. It would remove the very cool play of negating Scavenger (which almost never happens) in favor of making the card cleaner and more self explanatory for everyone.


Thanks Dominic!

While we're talking about this issue, it's not only relevant to Carnivore. Right now, it could be advantageous to negate Ambush and Pack Hunting on your own Carnivore as well for the same reason I described above. It may temporarily make you unable to feed...

So I could see why it may be re-written to only affect defensive traits, but disappointing if it no longer worked against Scavenger.
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David A
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Section changed for the question that follows.
cmabr002 wrote:
It could be advantageous because I might be forced to feed on my own species for a feeding turn, but if I'm allowed to discard a card to negate Carnivore, I can avoid that by causing this "interruption". Then, during my friend's next turn, the action they take gives me a new species to feed on (that is not my own). So then on my next feeding turn, I don't have to eat my own species. The reason I don't think you can do this is because the feeding rules say "you MUST feed one of your species", but that doesn't necessarily mean you cannot negate the Carnivore trait.

I know Dominic already answered, so now this is just a question for the sake of questioning. I'm not sure I understand what you are saying in the part that I colored in the quote. How does your friend's turn give you a new species to target rather than your own?
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Chris Mabry
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Thud105 wrote:
Section changed for the question that follows.
cmabr002 wrote:
It could be advantageous because I might be forced to feed on my own species for a feeding turn, but if I'm allowed to discard a card to negate Carnivore, I can avoid that by causing this "interruption". Then, during my friend's next turn, the action they take gives me a new species to feed on (that is not my own). So then on my next feeding turn, I don't have to eat my own species. The reason I don't think you can do this is because the feeding rules say "you MUST feed one of your species", but that doesn't necessarily mean you cannot negate the Carnivore trait.

I know Dominic already answered, so now this is just a question for the sake of questioning. I'm not sure I understand what you are saying in the part that I colored in the quote. How does your friend's turn give you a new species to target rather than your own?


It was a while since I played where this situation came up, but I believe it was something similar to this. His only eligible target to feed on (with a Carnivore) was one with Warning Call and larger body size than the one to the left which has Symbiosis. If he eats the Warning Call species into extinction, then the Warning Call and Symbiosis protection from larger body size that prevented me from eating the adjacent species are no longer in play so now I can feed on the species that was once protected by Warning Call/Symbiosis. With only one card in my hand, I cannot negate both Warning Call and Symbiosis, and thus, would not feed on that species. I was forced to eat my own species, which in the end, cost me quite a lot of points.
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David A
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Ahhh.....ok, makes sense now that the blanks were filled in. Thanks!
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Pete
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domcrap wrote:
I think somebody used Intelligence to negate their intelligence! Hahaha! laugh laugh laugh

Just kidding. That's a great question and we took up entirely too much of our work day discussing it last week. In the end, we decided it was problematic and unthematic to negate Carnivore. Even further, we're considering changing the wording so Intelligence negates 1 defensive trait during their next attack. It would remove the very cool play of negating Scavenger (which almost never happens) in favor of making the card cleaner and more self explanatory for everyone.
The rules lawyer in me now wants to classify all sorts of traits as "defensive."

Pete (starts us all over again)
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Byron S
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plezercruz wrote:
domcrap wrote:
I think somebody used Intelligence to negate their intelligence! Hahaha! laugh laugh laugh

Just kidding. That's a great question and we took up entirely too much of our work day discussing it last week. In the end, we decided it was problematic and unthematic to negate Carnivore. Even further, we're considering changing the wording so Intelligence negates 1 defensive trait during their next attack. It would remove the very cool play of negating Scavenger (which almost never happens) in favor of making the card cleaner and more self explanatory for everyone.
The rules lawyer in me now wants to classify all sorts of traits as "defensive."

Pete (starts us all over again)

In all of the latest versions, the cards are colored by type. Red is Attack, Green is food-generating, Grey is defensive, and Yellow is various utility.
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Togo Took
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I think you are focusing too much on game mechanic and ignoring the theme which for me is what real make the game. You want to pretend your species is not a carnivore, but just this once.... If carnivore is not a desirable train then the species needs to evolve and discard the carnivore trait. Being stuck with a "negative" trait is and adapting is the game.
 
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Dominic Crapuchettes
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We're working on the next print run of Evolution now. It will be likely retail for $39.99. The biggest change to the components is that it will not have the high quality velvety bags and will instead come with Food Screens.

We have also decided to change the wording so Intelligence negates 1 defensive trait during your next attack. It will clear up some of these ambiguities.
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domcrap wrote:
I think somebody used Intelligence to negate their intelligence! Hahaha! laugh laugh laugh


We had a situation tonight where we wondered whether one animal with intelligence could negate the intelligence trait of all other animals in that round. Thematically, the animal outsmarts everybody else with discarding the card first. Probably not a good idea, but judging from the phrasing of the German translation, not disallowed.

p.s.: Great game or greatest game!?

p.p.s.: Alright, overlooked your last answer in this thread. As intelligence is not a defensive trait, it's not negate...able.
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Pierre Beri
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Valsimot8645653 wrote:
We had a situation tonight where we wondered whether one animal with intelligence could negate the intelligence trait of all other animals in that round. Thematically, the animal outsmarts everybody else with discarding the card first. Probably not a good idea, but judging from the phrasing of the German translation, not disallowed.
Not allowed since Intelligence only negates one trait for one attack, not for the whole feeding phase.
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Slava
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It's a little sad you guys are changing the Intelligence card in response to this thread. I think using Intelligence on your own Carnivore should result in being able to pick up food from the feeding hole.

It's a very thematic and creative use which is a perfect simulation of the unpredictable nature of evolution. A carnivore goes to attack a creature, decides it can't feed on it and then chooses to eat grass instead of starving.

I'm happy I have an earlier edition which allows for more creative uses of this card.
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