Moshe Callen
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ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
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μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
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I am playing the Avalon Hill version of the game with my wife (two colors each). In round 5, I got the Sung Dynasty card. I had control of China and Southeast Asia with two ships already in the South China Sea. That is the only sea the Sung dynasty can build its mandatory fleet in. The rules specify that the build point is lost if the sea cannot be reached, but that was not the case here. My wife and I played it that the build point was therefore not lost. Is there an official ruling?
 
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Miquel Izquierdo Cazorla
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Hi. I don't have the rules in front of me now, but i think you still must built the fleet, or lose the build point...
 
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Moshe Callen
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ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
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μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
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I didn't think one could have more than two fleets in the same sea or ocean.
 
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Miquel Izquierdo Cazorla
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You're right. I forget this rule. But in this case i think is prioritary the last sentence of rule 5.42: Mandatory fleet builds: if you can't built the fleet you lost the built.
 
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Moshe Callen
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ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
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μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
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rhora12 wrote:
You're right. I forget this rule. But in this case i think is prioritary the last sentence of rule 5.42: Mandatory fleet builds: if you can't built the fleet you lost the built.

Except that's not what it says. It says if you can't build because you can't get to that sea. It doesn't say or if the sea has two fleets already. I deplore rules lawyering but this seems to be specifically excluded by the wording.
 
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Miquel Izquierdo Cazorla
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But, maybe, in any case you can't reach the specific sea.
Let's assume the following: Actually you built a Sung Fleet. You attack the past fleet in the South China Seas, with the same color. In any case the fleet (Sung or the older) will survive, but there is not change of color or control because both are own by you. Ths Sung has constructed a fleet and the stacking limit is respected...
 
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Moshe Callen
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ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
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μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
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I can't reach a sea I'm adjacent to? One I would have reached and built in had it been empty?
 
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Miquel Izquierdo Cazorla
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And a combination of rule 5.42 and 8.25?. And again 5.42 "if unable to reach a navigable Sea/Ocean during its turn, it forfeits one build". In your example you're unable to reach a sea allowed to the Sung to avoid overstacking. But you can attack your own fleet.
 
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Moshe Callen
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ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
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μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
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rhora12 wrote:
And a combination of rule 5.42 and 8.25?. And again 5.42 "if unable to reach a navigable Sea/Ocean during its turn, it forfeits one build". In your example you're unable to reach a sea allowed to the Sung to avoid overstacking. But you can attack your own fleet.

That's giving the phrase "unable to reach" an entirely new meaning.
 
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Moshe Callen
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ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
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μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
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whac3 wrote:
rhora12 wrote:
And a combination of rule 5.42 and 8.25?. And again 5.42 "if unable to reach a navigable Sea/Ocean during its turn, it forfeits one build". In your example you're unable to reach a sea allowed to the Sung to avoid overstacking. But you can attack your own fleet.

That's giving the phrase "unable to reach" an entirely new meaning.

Look, I understand you think it goes that way, and that's fine. I don't think the simple wording does, not by a long shot. It's not even an ambiguous quibble. That's why I asked if there's an official ruling to go by.
 
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Richard Young
Canada
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whac3 wrote:
I didn't think one could have more than two fleets in the same sea or ocean.
You can't and you won't because when you build the mandatory fleet in the South China Sea, it will replace the one you already have there from a previous epoch. Just as you automatically roll over land units of your colour if you attack it with your current faction. Granted you try not to have to do that in the land case but here you must expend the point on a fleet build if you can (and you can in your example), or lose the build point. Another reason why you try not to have overlapping dynasties (and why your opponents will try to stick you with one if they can).
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