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Subject: What to do with this pledge ? rss

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Loud smoker
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So I am one of those unlucky EU buyers still waiting TO7S to arrive , I was planning to get everything available with MD , but with this bitter experience with TO7S I am just not sure anymore ... maybe at this point I should just get the 120 dollars pledge pay for delivery and forget about it ... at the end of the day in ebay already sell T07S and I found even at reasonable price ... so probably this should happen with MD too right ?

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Danny Lamprey
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Is your pledge late because of the Hanjin company going bankrupt? If so, that isn't CMON's fault and I would assume that by time MD is ready to ship they would have either chosen a different shipping company or sorted that whole situation out... It's up to you if you really want to sell The Others and not pick up MD but, things happen that can't be controlled. It's unfortunate but you'll get it eventually and MD will arrive as well.
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Based on the updates CMON is actually doing a pretty impressive (or lucky) job dealing with Hanjin issues with the UK items already scheduled to be loaded on to another ship.

If another of the largest shipping companies in the world goes bankrupt shortly after MD is loaded onto ships a game being delayed is likely to be the least of peoples worries.
 
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Andrew Cargill
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I'd say if you were going to go all in for MD then go all in, likely hood of another delay like TO7S is slim, but even if it does happen you'll still get what you paid for eventually
 
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reaching out from the in-between spaces...
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Baldwin
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On the other hand, perhaps CMON's kickstarters aren't for you. They are always delayed and only communicate when necessary.*

If the stress of backing them is too much to deal with, it may be best to bail.

Jorune

*Just to note, I back most CMON Kickstarters and always factor in 6 months delay. I also have no problems only hearing from them when they have something to communicate. So I am not knocking how they do business. But I DO realize there are those who prefer constant communication from project creators and don't begrudge some's difference of opinion
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Leon
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This is what I did. I will not get more than the base pledge.

I am really tired of this "it is not their fault" BS as well. Hanjin sure is not. But this is not the root of the whole problem... They still are not honest to us 2nd class backers in the EU. This is my main issue I have with them. Honesty seems to be an uncommon virtue these days...

At least I can do a small vote with my wallet now. I wrote them, why I did not pledge as usual. They know that there is at least one unhappy customer right now that draws a line.

I will of course back future KS, but I think a little sign is better than none.
 
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Jeroen Timmermans
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People need to stop thinking of Kickstarters as pre-orders...
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Leon
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Do not kid yourself! KS is a preorder for CMON. There is no doubt at all. They could handle their own print runs. They just realised that this model offers a higher margin.
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Andy Stanford
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Telrak wrote:
Do not kid yourself! KS is a preorder for CMON. There is no doubt at all. They could handle their own print runs. They just realised that this model offers a higher margin.

I'm not sure about the higher margin on KS, considering all the KSE stuff that has to be produced, although there's a lot of middle-man being cut out. What KS really cuts down on for CMON, is risk. They're effectively in a no risk scenario, because the campaign funds the production costs (many times over, most likely) before they've even completed the design work in some cases, and because of the KS stance that it's explicitly not a pre-order, and that producers are under no obligation to actually deliver at all, never mind on time, as long as they can show reasonable efforts to do so, there's no comeback on them.

So for CMON, KS is better than a pre-order.
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Jeroen Timmermans
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Telrak wrote:
Do not kid yourself! KS is a preorder for CMON. There is no doubt at all. They could handle their own print runs. They just realised that this model offers a higher margin.


OMG a business is trying to make money! The horror!

They offer you early access to a boardgame, exclusives for funding it through Kickstarter, and asa part of this deal you agree to accepting the risks involved, including a possible shifting releasedate. Unlike some other companies, CMON has so far always delivered.

I'm starting to think I need to stay away from messageboards and the comments section, because as soon as the project ends the floodgates open and people start complaining about the lack of communication, demand a releasedate for the survey, Pledge Manager and game. The entitlement is sickening, really. You did your part, now CMON will do their part. And yes, maybe they'll ship in April, maybe they'll ship in May, maybe they'll ship in November, who knows? If you don't like that part of the agreement, don't pledge, sit back, and wait for the game to hit retail.
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Mike Morales
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This is CMON's 23rd kickstarter and its has the most backers to date. This song and dance is at this point a soap opera that goes a little something like this...

Campaign starts and people are happy but as soon as the campaign ends the crowds complain then unrest as the campaign is late...then the product arrives and everyone is happy again and loves CMON again. circle of life.

honestly I think its all the new backers and people that like to stir it up in the comments that make it seem like more of the drama that what it really is. The reality is you can never go wrong with backing a CMON project because at the end of the day you can always sell the exclusives for a profit if your not happy with the results.


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Jim Jones
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jeroenemans wrote:
The entitlement is sickening, really.


As sickening as people constantly mis-using entitlement in a pejorative sense in order to shut down discussion? Particularly stupid in this instance as backers are literally entitled. No wonder CMON stick with using KS for their pre-orders when they have a loyal workforce of volunteer apologists.
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Leon
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jeroenemans wrote:
Telrak wrote:
Do not kid yourself! KS is a preorder for CMON. There is no doubt at all. They could handle their own print runs. They just realised that this model offers a higher margin.


OMG a business is trying to make money! The horror!

They offer you early access to a boardgame, exclusives for funding it through Kickstarter, and asa part of this deal you agree to accepting the risks involved, including a possible shifting releasedate. Unlike some other companies, CMON has so far always delivered.

I'm starting to think I need to stay away from messageboards and the comments section, because as soon as the project ends the floodgates open and people start complaining about the lack of communication, demand a releasedate for the survey, Pledge Manager and game. The entitlement is sickening, really. You did your part, now CMON will do their part. And yes, maybe they'll ship in April, maybe they'll ship in May, maybe they'll ship in November, who knows? If you don't like that part of the agreement, don't pledge, sit back, and wait for the game to hit retail.


Interesting answer. Not even close to what was said but please keep writing. I will get some popcorn. =)
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reaching out from the in-between spaces...
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Telrak wrote:
Do not kid yourself! KS is a preorder for CMON. There is no doubt at all. They could handle their own print runs. They just realised that this model offers a higher margin.


Which benefits us because we get a whole lot of exclusive models that eat into their profit (since they don't keep making more).

In the case of The Others: 7 Sins, I have to wonder just how much more profit since they gave us so much for the basic pledge.

With a CMON KS, it's a win both for them and for backers. It's not a one way street.

Jorune
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Emivaldo Sousa
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Jorune wrote:
Telrak wrote:
Do not kid yourself! KS is a preorder for CMON. There is no doubt at all. They could handle their own print runs. They just realised that this model offers a higher margin.


Which benefits us because we get a whole lot of exclusive models that eat into their profit (since they don't keep making more).

In the case of The Others: 7 Sins, I have to wonder just how much more profit since they gave us so much for the basic pledge.

With a CMON KS, it's a win both for them and for backers. It's not a one way street.

Jorune


It is really not a one way street. Of course there is value for customers. At least enough that most people don't mind the delays (me included).

But justifying the delay "because it is kickstarter" really does not make sense. It will either be something extraordinary (like what happened with the others) or lack of planning (maybe a bit of both). Delays in kickstarter "because it is kickstarter" are justifiable when a company is new to the game (and maybe not even then). This "because it is kickstarter" mentality is harmful to us. I think a lot of companies do set their delivery dates earlier on purpose because they know we will "understand" and they might trick some into backing because a realistic date would not be inviting.

At this point CMON does run a risk free operation with an army of apologists. It would benefit them to be more professional and have better communication to keep building good will towards their business, I think. Eye on the horizon and all that.

Yes, we should expect delays. I am not so sure we should always accept them.

That said, I think they made a good thing shipping Black Plague a bit earlier than the other stuff and the situation with The Others was a bit out of control - but there were still some delays not related with the bankruptcy of the delivery company and terrible communication in the process.
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Patrick Heron
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I always thought the main problem was KS forces the company to pick a date - they pick a date they think is reasonable and then, when the Kickstarter blows up into something huge, they're totally unprepared for what needs to be done. Not every CMON game is super successful - that's why I normally give every kickstarter project a mental 3 month window at least. If it goes beserk, then it's 6 months.

Removes a lot of stress lol
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blackpuddingbertha wrote:
I always thought the main problem was KS forces the company to pick a date - they pick a date they think is reasonable and then, when the Kickstarter blows up into something huge, they're totally unprepared for what needs to be done. Not every CMON game is super successful - that's why I normally give every kickstarter project a mental 3 month window at least. If it goes beserk, then it's 6 months.

Removes a lot of stress lol


According to a CMON interview just before the launch Massive Darkness They keep adding more and more time to their estimate beyond what the factory tells them and it just keeps not being enough. For this one, supposedly, their deliver estimate is around 6 months later than it would be just based on what the factory promised even including the stretch goals.
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The Game Steward
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zinho73 wrote:
Jorune wrote:
Telrak wrote:
Do not kid yourself! KS is a preorder for CMON. There is no doubt at all. They could handle their own print runs. They just realised that this model offers a higher margin.


Which benefits us because we get a whole lot of exclusive models that eat into their profit (since they don't keep making more).

In the case of The Others: 7 Sins, I have to wonder just how much more profit since they gave us so much for the basic pledge.

With a CMON KS, it's a win both for them and for backers. It's not a one way street.

Jorune


It is really not a one way street. Of course there is value for customers. At least enough that most people don't mind the delays (me included).

But justifying the delay "because it is kickstarter" really does not make sense. It will either be something extraordinary (like what happened with the others) or lack of planning (maybe a bit of both). Delays in kickstarter "because it is kickstarter" are justifiable when a company is new to the game (and maybe not even then). This "because it is kickstarter" mentality is harmful to us. I think a lot of companies do set their delivery dates earlier on purpose because they know we will "understand" and they might trick some into backing because a realistic date would not be inviting.

At this point CMON does run a risk free operation with an army of apologists. It would benefit them to be more professional and have better communication to keep building good will towards their business, I think. Eye on the horizon and all that.

Yes, we should expect delays. I am not so sure we should always accept them.

That said, I think they made a good thing shipping Black Plague a bit earlier than the other stuff and the situation with The Others was a bit out of control - but there were still some delays not related with the bankruptcy of the delivery company and terrible communication in the process.


Personally, I don't see the delays as acceptable "because it is Kickstarter." I accept them because they are inevitable in the industry, whether it is FFG or CMON or a first time project creator. It's just that the delays on games published outside of Kickstarter are relatively invisible - a company quietly states that a game's release has been moved from Q2 to Q3, and nobody blinks, because it happens all the time.

This is the big downside to Kickstarter for publishers - everything is much more transparent (including delays) - and so everything comes under much more scrutiny.

Arguably, delays are more common with small and new(er) publishers, but they still happen for everyone. Everyone. No company is immune. And if anyone doesn't accept that delays are inevitable, then that person has never worked in the industry.

Of course, not all delays are equal. I agree that just because delays are inevitable, not all delays should be given a free pass, irrespective of the cause of the delay. But neither does it achieve anything to have some kind of "zero tolerance" policy and believe that if consumers just started voting with their dollars, then the delays would no longer occur. They will never disappear. Never.

Understanding that this is the case, then demanding that gamers start boycotting a large and established company like CMON to force them to stop the delays is ridiculous. CMON may have made some mistakes that were self-inflicted, and customers who don't have a tolerance for delays are justified in looking elsewhere, but I would never suggest that anyone who chooses to keep backing CMON projects are somehow "enabling" those delays.

CMON is already losing out on potential revenue because games aren't arriving during the holiday season. They know very well that these kinds of delays are unacceptable. I'm pretty sure there is nothing that we, as individual customers, can do or say that will drive that point home more than lost holiday season revenue.
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Emivaldo Sousa
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GreenLaborMike wrote:
zinho73 wrote:
Jorune wrote:
Telrak wrote:
Do not kid yourself! KS is a preorder for CMON. There is no doubt at all. They could handle their own print runs. They just realised that this model offers a higher margin.


Which benefits us because we get a whole lot of exclusive models that eat into their profit (since they don't keep making more).

In the case of The Others: 7 Sins, I have to wonder just how much more profit since they gave us so much for the basic pledge.

With a CMON KS, it's a win both for them and for backers. It's not a one way street.

Jorune


It is really not a one way street. Of course there is value for customers. At least enough that most people don't mind the delays (me included).

But justifying the delay "because it is kickstarter" really does not make sense. It will either be something extraordinary (like what happened with the others) or lack of planning (maybe a bit of both). Delays in kickstarter "because it is kickstarter" are justifiable when a company is new to the game (and maybe not even then). This "because it is kickstarter" mentality is harmful to us. I think a lot of companies do set their delivery dates earlier on purpose because they know we will "understand" and they might trick some into backing because a realistic date would not be inviting.

At this point CMON does run a risk free operation with an army of apologists. It would benefit them to be more professional and have better communication to keep building good will towards their business, I think. Eye on the horizon and all that.

Yes, we should expect delays. I am not so sure we should always accept them.

That said, I think they made a good thing shipping Black Plague a bit earlier than the other stuff and the situation with The Others was a bit out of control - but there were still some delays not related with the bankruptcy of the delivery company and terrible communication in the process.


Personally, I don't see the delays as acceptable "because it is Kickstarter." I accept them because they are inevitable in the industry, whether it is FFG or CMON or a first time project creator. It's just that the delays on games published outside of Kickstarter are relatively invisible - a company quietly states that a game's release has been moved from Q2 to Q3, and nobody blinks, because it happens all the time.

This is the big downside to Kickstarter for publishers - everything is much more transparent (including delays) - and so everything comes under much more scrutiny.

Arguably, delays are more common with small and new(er) publishers, but they still happen for everyone. Everyone. No company is immune. And if anyone doesn't accept that delays are inevitable, then that person has never worked in the industry.

Of course, not all delays are equal. I agree that just because delays are inevitable, not all delays should be given a free pass, irrespective of the cause of the delay. But neither does it achieve anything to have some kind of "zero tolerance" policy and believe that if consumers just started voting with their dollars, then the delays would no longer occur. They will never disappear. Never.

Understanding that this is the case, then demanding that gamers start boycotting a large and established company like CMON to force them to stop the delays is ridiculous. CMON may have made some mistakes that were self-inflicted, and customers who don't have a tolerance for delays are justified in looking elsewhere, but I would never suggest that anyone who chooses to keep backing CMON projects are somehow "enabling" those delays.

CMON is already losing out on potential revenue because games aren't arriving during the holiday season. They know very well that these kinds of delays are unacceptable. I'm pretty sure there is nothing that we, as individual customers, can do or say that will drive that point home more than lost holiday season revenue.


Yeah, but if something is delayed and does not have my money involved, there is no issue to begin with.

Also, if delays are so unavoidable, companies should count on it and give a more reasonable estimate. They often do not do that because it would be disheartening for some people or are bad at planning (that´s kind of my point: we all know it happens, so give more time in your initial estimate). Yeah, it can still be off but then we are talking about some really weird stuff. Also, most customers never worked on the industry, they do not have any inside information - the only way to know what is happening is voicing their concerns.

Boycotts are often a bad idea. Voicing your dissatisfaction as a costumer is often a good one. Even if it is not what the majority thinks. The service provider must be the judge of the complaining and, sometimes, the odd duck can point out what others didn't see. If you don't like the 6-month delay you don't like it. You can understand the company situation and still don't like it.

The fact is that when something fails on the other side, we don't know why. It could be unavoidable, it could be an oversight, it could be something intentional. I say complain and see what happens. I want those companies to improve and they need our feedback to do so. If they cannot do anything about it, they can't, but they must know.

That said, I don't think CMON are evil, I obviously think that they do not wanted the delay either, I think they are improving, and I think that an inquisitive costumer is healthy for the industry.

I also think we are saying mostly the same thing. . I am not a fan of extremes either - on both sides of the argument.
 
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Mikael Brodu
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I pledge for $1, and eventually I just let the PM close without completing my order. I've lost $1, but that's a fair price for avoiding the wait and delays, and in the end getting a poorly designed game.
Pretty plastic isn't everything, to me at least.
 
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Balthus Dire
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Well I upgraded my $1. I'm still sad I didn't back 7 Sins, but at the end of the day I think this will be an awesome game to play with my little man when he grows a little.
 
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