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Glen Drover's Empires: Galactic Rebellion» Forums » General

Subject: Less fiddlyness? rss

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Jorge Alvarez
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So far out of the negative comments I've heard about the game, the only one that worries me is the time it takes to resolve the Galactic War and/or the fiddly nature of it. The Galactic War itself sounds interesting to me considering it's something you should expect and/or plan for (I admit I might've missed something, since I've not played it).

For those of you who have played the game, could adding cubes and bags to the game and resolving all planets simultaneously help improve/streamline the Galactic War at the end of the game in any significant way?

Thanks!
 
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Jason Speicher
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OldTallandUgly wrote:
So far out of the negative comments I've heard about the game, the only one that worries me is the time it takes to resolve the Galactic War and/or the fiddly nature of it. The Galactic War itself sounds interesting to me considering it's something you should expect and/or plan for (I admit I might've missed something, since I've not played it).

For those of you who have played the game, could adding cubes and bags to the game and resolving all planets simultaneously help improve/streamline the Galactic War at the end of the game in any significant way?

Thanks!


Glenn made note that if people have a understanding of what to expect it really doesn't take long to resolve. I think a lot of the concern is over blown.
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Jorge Alvarez
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jwspiker wrote:
OldTallandUgly wrote:
So far out of the negative comments I've heard about the game, the only one that worries me is the time it takes to resolve the Galactic War and/or the fiddly nature of it. The Galactic War itself sounds interesting to me considering it's something you should expect and/or plan for (I admit I might've missed something, since I've not played it).

For those of you who have played the game, could adding cubes and bags to the game and resolving all planets simultaneously help improve/streamline the Galactic War at the end of the game in any significant way?

Thanks!


Glenn made note that if people have a understanding of what to expect it really doesn't take long to resolve. I think a lot of the concern is over blown.

That's my take on most of the criticisms; of course, I haven't played it so I may be wrong. I guess I'm looking for a solution to a problem I may not have haha, but I wanted to hear others thought about it.
 
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Steve G.
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OldTallandUgly wrote:
So far out of the negative comments I've heard about the game, the only one that worries me is the time it takes to resolve the Galactic War and/or the fiddly nature of it. The Galactic War itself sounds interesting to me considering it's something you should expect and/or plan for (I admit I might've missed something, since I've not played it).

For those of you who have played the game, could adding cubes and bags to the game and resolving all planets simultaneously help improve/streamline the Galactic War at the end of the game in any significant way?

Thanks!

Emphasis mine.

Not to put too fine a head on it, do we have someone more impartial than the designer speaking positively about the endgame?
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Glenn Drover
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steveg700 wrote:
OldTallandUgly wrote:
So far out of the negative comments I've heard about the game, the only one that worries me is the time it takes to resolve the Galactic War and/or the fiddly nature of it. The Galactic War itself sounds interesting to me considering it's something you should expect and/or plan for (I admit I might've missed something, since I've not played it).

For those of you who have played the game, could adding cubes and bags to the game and resolving all planets simultaneously help improve/streamline the Galactic War at the end of the game in any significant way?

Thanks!

Emphasis mine.

Not to put too fine a head on it, do we have someone more impartial than the designer speaking positively about the endgame?


I am certainly partial (I really like the game and how it plays), but at this point, I'm the one with the most plays. ;-)

Unlike Age of Discovery and many worker placement games, Galactic Rebellion requires the players to not only play against the other players, but against the game as well. This fits the theme quite well: The various rebel factions are struggling against each other, but also against the Galactic Empire throughout the game. At the end, the Empire finally awakes to the threat and starts attacking rebel incursions on every planet (starting with the faction that poses the biggest threat on each planet).

So, it fits the theme, but it also poses a unique gameplay challenge for the players: They have to mitigate the looming threat of this attack during the game while simultaneously working to secure their place as THE rebel faction.

This is a very different mechanic than how Age of Discovery worked, and a real challenge. It is easy to forget to 'invest' in the future when there are always such pressing needs every turn.
But, for those who do this well, the rewards are great.

If everyone does nothing to mitigate the threat and therefore reduce the number of Sentinels (Imperial Troops), the Galactic War will be disruptive to the leaders on the various planets, and might take some time to resolve (perhaps 10 - 15 minutes), but given normal to aggressive investment against the Sentinels during the game the resolution is quite short (5 minutes or so).

Tom Vasel, in his recent review, complained about this, but in my view, was unfair in how he portrayed it. Based on his experience, I have to imagine that he only played the game once, which given the unexpected nature of the 'play against the game' mechanic, can lead to a surprise ending that seems to undermine the outcome of the game. His claim that there could be 60 - 70 unique battles is also a gross exaggeration in even a worst case. Given his influence in this hobby, it is disappointing that he would play a game only once and then pass judgment. He owes his fans and those who depend on his guidance more than that.
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Lawrence Myers
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OP is asking feedback when the game is not even in the KS backers hands yet. I received a tracking number at the end of Sept but no update since. Also, I have already received last week another game that was reported as to be on the same boat from China but still waiting for this one. This game is in a big box so maybe the logistics are more difficult to get it going. The point is.. before starting up a discussion about how the game plays and improvements, how about giving us a chance to get the game and play it? I bet it is driving Glen mad just seeing this thread sitting here without comments of the loyal fans. I have the prequel game Empires: Age of Discovery and I am looking forward to see how this game plays different including the Galactic war.
 
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Jorge Alvarez
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Bogusgig wrote:
OP is asking feedback when the game is not even in the KS backers hands yet. I received a tracking number at the end of Sept but no update since. Also, I have already received last week another game that was reported as to be on the same boat from China but still waiting for this one. This game is in a big box so maybe the logistics are more difficult to get it going. The point is.. before starting up a discussion about how the game plays and improvements, how about giving us a chance to get the game and play it? I bet it is driving Glen mad just seeing this thread sitting here without comments of the loyal fans. I have the prequel game Empires: Age of Discovery and I am looking forward to see how this game plays different including the Galactic war.


I understand what you're saying, but like I stated, I'm not really worried about most of the complaints and I am looking forward to the game. However there have been whole threads about this and I decided to ask the people that have actually played it if something as simple as my "solution" could help. Like I also stated later, I admit this could be a solution to a non-existent problem, but wanted to hear others thought.
 
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Matt Smith
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In another thread I mentioned it's possible to add more bags to allow for resolving the GW on multiple planets simultaneously. You shouldn't need to add more cubes, as you can use cubes from an unused color or a player not involved in any current GW battles as the Sentinel cubes.

For example, if you add two more bags to the game, you could resolve three GW battles simultaneously. The cube color is shown in parantheses:
- Veltair: Sentinels (black) vs. Green player (green)
- Galcrux: Sentinels (blue) vs. Red player (Red)
- Edara: Sentinels (purple) vs. Orange player (orange)

Once those three battles are done, if the Sentinels are still alive on those planets, proceed to attack the new majority player. Otherwise, start resolving the next planet.

I can't say if this suggestion is even necessary because I haven't played the game yet. I've only run simulated GW battles using a bag and cubes from another game. But if players want to make the GW take as little time as possible while still following the rules as written, simply adding two bags to the game should reduce the GW time by roughly two-thirds. So a 15-minute GW would now only take 5 minutes, or a 6-minute GW would only take 2 minutes.
 
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Raf Cordero
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For what it's worth, I just wrapped up a 3 player game and the final Galactic War took < 5 minutes (4 min 45 seconds). Really wasn't bad at all. We did all of one factions battles first, then moved to next, and looped until complete. This made it go really quick as you could pull-drop-pull on a planet until the sentinels died or the faction did then move to the next place that color had majority.

Now to be fair, I'd read many of the posts and so knew to attack Sentinels early and prioritize missions and agendas that could eliminate them.
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Steve G.
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Bogusgig wrote:
OP is asking feedback when the game is not even in the KS backers hands yet.

Many backers have the game by now. I think I've had it a couple weeks or so. But my fellow gamers might not appreciate me dropping a huge, long game on them that falls apart in the final act. Not saying that's what's going to happen, just that I lose credibility when I use my friends as lab rats. They're just not cult-of-the-new enough to be enticed by experimentation.

I'm hoping for more Youtube reviewers to chime, particularly Joel Eddy.
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Steve G.
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Budley wrote:
Tom Vasel, in his recent review, complained about this, but in my view, was unfair in how he portrayed it. Based on his experience, I have to imagine that he only played the game once, which given the unexpected nature of the 'play against the game' mechanic, can lead to a surprise ending that seems to undermine the outcome of the game. His claim that there could be 60 - 70 unique battles is also a gross exaggeration in even a worst case. Given his influence in this hobby, it is disappointing that he would play a game only once and then pass judgment. He owes his fans and those who depend on his guidance more than that.

Sure, this happens with The Dice Tower reviews sometimes. I always say Tom's reviews consist more of general impressions than incisive critique.

On the other hand, I think it is a legitimate concern that players are sitting down to a worker-placement game, which is a type of game driven by executing a series of strategic choices, and then at the 11th hour all of those inputs are impacted by luck-of-the-draw grab-bag element. Now, I understand that the sentinels represent a mitigating factor, but the question remains that once you assume players make a reasonable effort to deal with them, just how heavily is victory influenced by drawing chits out of a bag? How often will players see Tom's scenario where the player who was relying on majority control of a planet just winds up being a meat shield for the #2 player?
 
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Raf Cordero
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How often depends on how willing they're able to invest in mitigating the sentinel risk. Prepping or dealing with the sentinels always feels like an inefficient resource sink until that last round when suddenly they're there with 8 cubes to your 5 or with 5 sentinels parked on your planet.

Any player depending on Act 3 Majority control needs to have invested in sentinel attack or they're going to depend on that draw. My first game saw the person in 2nd come in 2nd because they opted to roll the cubes on one particular planet. They could have fought more there but didn't. It didn't feel cheap or lame.

We only had a few battles, took less than 5 minutes. The player who led into Epoch 3 (based on majority control) still won but it was very close.
 
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Galen
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Quote:
How often depends on how willing they're able to invest in mitigating the sentinel risk.


Its still a valid concern. This game is based on heavy euro mechanics. In E:AoD battle happen very very rarely (in my experience). If I say down for a game of Galactic Rebellion and didn't read Tom's review and Glenn's response, I could absolutely see my game group getting steam-rolled by the sentinels at the end. This would lead to a very frustrating user experience.
 
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Aaron Bevan
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i will ignore one part of the game and be mad when it bites me shake
 
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I'm twisted about Tom's review too. I don't own the AoE III but then I watch reviews of that game, especially Tom and he loves it. I see the combat in that game and he loves it, and so do the other reviews. I see that AoE III combat and think it is too simple. I see euro gamers who want it to be zero random and all skill as an egotistical bunch but as a real gamer who plays miniature wargames for example having a combat system where you have two dudes and I have one dude and so you lose two guys and I lose one in an tit for tat style is something a 5 year old could master. What does that say about the euro gamer? Well, it is something they apparently love.

So then I see this cube in a bag combat and there is belly aching. I think ok so it is not simple enough for the simple minded euro gamer? Really. I will say the game probably could do with some Cube Tower action and if you go watch Tom you'll see he loves the Cube Tower. He describes it it as 'fun' and other reviewers as tactile enjoyment. They like it. Ok, so Tom who owns Wallenstein could have used that cube tower and added that fun to his empires gallactic rebellion.

Someone then said that cube tower was patented. Ok. I get that. But still, if you can use a cube tower I'd say that will make for some 'fun' given the same reviewers like Tom loved that and I'm guessing would love its use in a game like E:GR.

I will say seeing the game Empires: Gallactic Rebellion requires you to have a bag and doesn't include one is a real true gripe. A legit one. I think it should have included one. I own the Limited Edition version of the game but why must we have a limited edition to get a bag. That too me was a bit bonk. Also if the game is tight at 6 players why even make another two players available for an LE. I see that more as just an added color choice for the 5 players who normally will play. Yet, I suppose you might want that many potentially.

Also I play Axis and Allies and I don't get why so many miniatures, another gripe of Tom's. If you have a plastic mini and those little plastic poker chips stacked underneath like Axis and Allies uses, you don't need so many miniatures. You can have a white or brown or black chip to represent the 1 and another color like red or blue to represent the 5. Then you put a dude down and if you add another of that type put a chip under it.

That would be my gripe. Why didn't Glenn think of that? I think he did and thus chose not to but there is no gripe about too many minis for Age of Empires III. Why not? and then why gripe about it in Empires: Galactic Rebellion.

I'm saying you can have that many in the game and if that is case, why not have another box. You see when you have a lot of stuff in a game and expansions often for many games it won't fit in one box. That's ok. Go ask the Firefly boardgame. It won't fit in one box. Go ask most of my large games like that I have and they are all going to say 'Yup we have plano boxes to put our pieces in addition to the game box'. Solution identified and solved.

Thus to me, that is a non-issue of 'it won't fit'. Duh. I like adding things to boardgame and making them pimped out so that is not a real issue.

I would say to Glen please consider giving out those miniature Poker chips at least two colors so you can have players use them to represent a greater number of a given type of miniature in the game. If you did that you would not have needed such an expensive game, due the many components and as much room and thus it would have all fit.

Now, do I see any other reviewer give such comments like I'm making? Nope but these are obvious ideas which I know many of you might have had. Right?

Perhaps eagle games wanted to make a game that needed that much plastic printed. They choose that over, say, my obvious idea of suggesting the poker chip idea.

You can modify that idea easily. You could have included little flat wooden square blocks that could be stacked and looked good of the same color as the miniature faction and used that. Point is, it could be done and the choice was to do otherwise.

Anyways I own Empires: Galactic Rebellion and do not own Age of Empires and so the comment I read about why would you want to re-buy a game that is very similar to one you already owned. Well, I fall into that camp that didn't face such a choice. I like age of Empire and its theme but to be honest this game Empires: Galactic Rebellion appeals to me more. I would choose it over Age of Empires for theme, look (it looks better) and since it is basically the same game for the most part for someone like me it is a real choice that results in me getting basically the same experience as the Age of Empire game with a few tweaks. Therefore, I don't regret my purchase and don't think I need age of empires either.

I don't think Tom's review of this game is fair or that valid given you can literally see him stroke the chicken over Age of Empire and how he reacts to things like a 'cube tower' with such glee.

Yes, to me, both of these things, all of them, are rather simple mechanics. I can handle far more complexity than that so watching someone say the 'love' it and then another video where it is 'so bad' and looking at what they are talking about are like small tiny shades of grey difference. Meaning, from my perspective both would be something simple, like the Cube Tower. That is loved and yet really its dropping cubes and to me is anti-climactic to, say, rolling dice. I think euro gamers like it because it is a no-brainer simple and superquick and they want as little complexity in combat as possible. I want more, not less.

So to say the dice bag is bad, is a silly gripe to me, from my advanced complex gamer brain. I know Tom is a complex gamer though, yet not as much as me personally since I know he doesn't like miniature games and plays board games that take the role of things like that. I'm guessing he'll love Mythic Battles: Pantheon and he likes other games where yo have factions that battle.

Ok, so there is something called actual real miniature table top battle games. That is for the big boys who like playing with real miniatures. To me, board games try to simulate that stuff but are second-tier stuff compared to the 'real game' the boardgame is trying to incorporate an experience of. Normally don't knock it.

I say to each his own and don't mind someone like Tom liking what he likes. Just like board games that are basically semi-roleplaying games in a box where you have characters and you adventure around. That is essentially a roleplaying game in the form of a boardgame. I like those games too. I like Mythic Battles but to be real an actual roleplaying game and an actual table top miniature game are like real formula 1 racing vs some lesser tier racing game.

That is why when I read these comments about how a cube tower is awesome and a cube bag is not is very funny to me. I find that stuff hilarious. So come over and I'll show you a real tactical game.

Yet, I'm also a boardgame player too and I like the rpg-in-a-box or the boardgame/miniature game hybrid. I like it too just like Tom.

I don't mind simple mechanics either. The combat in Age of Empires is fine. I will say I probably like the combat I saw in the Napoleon boardgame better. You had a little board and you stack your guys in different ways with a type of combined arms and such. I forgot the name of that game but it worked for me as a gamer.

I also think, if I get a hold of a Cube Tower I will try and use it for this game. I also will try the bag out as the game is designed. I want to see which my inner gamer likes more.

In the end I am glad I own Empires: Galactic Rebellion and I like pimped out games that look very nice as well as satisfy me in play too. But then again, I just played Tiny Epic Western and had a blast. I like both pimped out games and the not-so-much type.

I would ask Tom to re-evaluate Empires: Galactic Rebellion at least after a few months to see how he feels and compare the game with AoE since they are largely similar except for a few key things.

Excuse any typos I made. I was tired when I wrote it. Hopefully you get the points I'm trying to make.

P.S. I love the Dice Tower and Tom but yes I thought I'd express my twisted feeling on this one. Normally I don't get that feeling, and I don't have any problem with him being negative in his reviews. I find it rather humorous sometimes. I like a real review that is honest. I appreciate his reviews and really like the ones with his two co-hosts too. I don't want to sound like a empire: galactic rebellion fan boy since, technically, I have little experience with the game and never played age of empire but I am a true gamer and know I can easily pick these games up and master them if I wanted. Just like I mentioned some of the odd choices I think Glen made when, say, not including a bag in his game where he has rules for using one. It is not really a problem for real gamers like myself or more than likely you reading this since we can get or have a bag already. In fact, go on this website and you'll find a link to buying bags you can get printed and thus if you need a bag you can get one at low cost. But since this game is some money I find it odd it was not standard. Keep in mind I bought Orleans which does come with bags in the deluxe version and I bought some bags with awesome orlean inspired logo/art and the GMT guys loved it when I sent them pics.

So if I don't like my actual real E:GR limited edition bag then I'll make my own and if I do it will be awesome.
 
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Steve G.
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Henry, I believe the gist of Tom's criticism about the combat was in the final stage of the game when you resolve a massive "galactic war". He felt it was too drawn-out for what just boils down to a bunch of bag-pulls, and that it seemed to result in the person with the area majority being pounded and thus allowing the player with second-most majority to clean up.
 
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