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So, this story seems to cement in mind the absolute necessity of keeping Trump out of the White House. I guess that was your point, right?
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J.D. Hall
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Dammit Drew, you beat me to it.

I know this doesn't rise to the level of where teh Donald puts his hands on a plane or whether or not Hillary is already renting out rooms in the White House to Islamic terrorists, but personally I've always thought the threat of nuclear war was at the very least interesting.

Putin is playing a great game internationally. Without a Poliburo or party apparatus, he is much more free to do what he wants -- and what he wants is a Russia that is considered the superpower of Earth. My view is that the US and the West have tried for a quarter century to bring Russia into the fold of civilized, democratic, free market nations. It is obvious it's not going to work. Time for the West to look out for its own interests, just as Putin is doing so. The tricky part are the Chinese. Now that the PRC has access to a high level of technology, the Russians no longer have to back channel access to high tech through proxies -- they can just go to the Chinese and buy whatever they want. And China, bless its lack of soul, sees Russia's power moves as an excellent way to deflect attention from what it is doing in the South China Sea.

The guy next to me at the office said he saw some story about a Russian ambassador hinting at a nuclear war. Sabre rattling almost certainly, but the idea of a peaceful, prosperous Russia co-existing with the West has been deleted. Time to re-invigorate NATO, shore up our defense agreements with South Korea and Japan, maybe even arm the Vietnamese (they hate China!), and not turn our military into the special forces version of the X-Men. Regardless of what the so-called experts say, we are going to need tanks, ships, jets, and artillery tubes.

Okay, everyone can go back to discussing the size of Trump's penis or Clinton's legendary lesbian love-ins.
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Josh
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Putin's death can't come too soon for the good of the Russian people.
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Mutton Chops
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Shadrach wrote:
Putin's death can't come too soon for the good of the Russian people.


I'd avoid Sushi for a while after this, if I were you.

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Чебурашка, ты настоящий друг!
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Shadrach wrote:
Putin's death can't come too soon for the good of the Russian people.


There isn't a liberal candidate open to the world to take his place, mind. Someone worse is possible.
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Josh
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Salo sila wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
Putin's death can't come too soon for the good of the Russian people.


There isn't a liberal candidate open to the world to take his place, mind. Someone worse is possible.


The likely result is an internal power struggle, weakening all involved. It'd be messy short term but with a potential good outcome, considering the alternative is the continuation of a slow slide into economic collapse and military overextension, it seems an improvement.
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Чебурашка, ты настоящий друг!
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Shadrach wrote:
Salo sila wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
Putin's death can't come too soon for the good of the Russian people.


There isn't a liberal candidate open to the world to take his place, mind. Someone worse is possible.


The likely result is an internal power struggle, weakening all involved. It'd be messy short term but with a potential good outcome, considering the alternative is the continuation of a slow slide into economic collapse and military overextension, it seems an improvement.


Or maybe not. We have no idea what would happen. An orderly transition is perfectly plausible, as is a full-on Russian nationalist. Russia's anti-Western stance is not down to just one man at the top but a product of society-wide discourses that reach back before 1991. The idea that all these problems will go away with Putin is just wishful thinking.
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Me nah play no 'ide and seek
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Yeah, this is way worse than Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan (Soviet Edition) and four decades of proxy wars, coups and other assorted mayhem throughout Latin America and Africa.
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Me nah play no 'ide and seek
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Incidentally, I can't remember if Obama provoked this by being a weak-kneed mom-jeans-wearing pushover or by being a vicious sabre-rattling madman.

But we are supposed to be worried about Russia now, right? So I guess we were correct about the whole Great_Red_Scare_of_2016 after all?
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Todd McMurray

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Here is the irony of this campaign... The Trump team and its surrogates are actually utilizing a foreign power who is also a country with divergent interests from our own to influence our election. If this were the 50s, Trump and his entire team would most likely be executed for treason.

So, you have the ex-Red Scare gang actually working with the Reds to modify our country.

Joe McCarthy's head would absolutely explode if he woke up today - which in itself would be a good thing.

So, Jeremy and Drewber are covert Soviet allies trying to undermine our country.
 
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Salo sila wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
Salo sila wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
Putin's death can't come too soon for the good of the Russian people.


There isn't a liberal candidate open to the world to take his place, mind. Someone worse is possible.


The likely result is an internal power struggle, weakening all involved. It'd be messy short term but with a potential good outcome, considering the alternative is the continuation of a slow slide into economic collapse and military overextension, it seems an improvement.


Or maybe not. We have no idea what would happen. An orderly transition is perfectly plausible, as is a full-on Russian nationalist. Russia's anti-Western stance is not down to just one man at the top but a product of society-wide discourses that reach back before 1991. The idea that all these problems will go away with Putin is just wishful thinking.


I think it's sometimes hard for people who've not been to Russia to grasp quite how fundamental and ingrained a culture of mistrust of the West is, particularly outside the more "cosmopolitan" major cities, but also within them. It's not that Russians are standoffish or openly critical on a personal level, but rather that any discussion of the international political scene quickly reveals a reflexive scepticism of the motives of Western governments, the US in particular.

Or at least, that's been my experience, anyway... :-)
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Me nah play no 'ide and seek
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mutton_chops wrote:
Salo sila wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
Salo sila wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
Putin's death can't come too soon for the good of the Russian people.


There isn't a liberal candidate open to the world to take his place, mind. Someone worse is possible.


The likely result is an internal power struggle, weakening all involved. It'd be messy short term but with a potential good outcome, considering the alternative is the continuation of a slow slide into economic collapse and military overextension, it seems an improvement.


Or maybe not. We have no idea what would happen. An orderly transition is perfectly plausible, as is a full-on Russian nationalist. Russia's anti-Western stance is not down to just one man at the top but a product of society-wide discourses that reach back before 1991. The idea that all these problems will go away with Putin is just wishful thinking.


I think it's sometimes hard for people who've not been to Russia to grasp quite how fundamental and ingrained a culture of mistrust of the West is, particularly outside the more "cosmopolitan" major cities, but also within them. It's not that Russians are standoffish or openly critical on a personal level, but rather that any discussion of the international political scene quickly reveals a reflexive scepticism of the motives of Western governments, the US in particular.

Or at least, that's been my experience, anyway... :-)


This reflexive anti-Western sentiment is understandable when you consider that, apart from a brief respite in the 1990s, the Russian people have been told for just shy of a century now that the only reason their nation isn't the greatest, most prosperous place on Earth is because of Western saboteurs, spies and agents provocateurs. How else could Comrade Stalin's Five-Year-Plans have failed so consistently?
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J.D. Hall
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mutton_chops wrote:
I think it's sometimes hard for people who've not been to Russia to grasp quite how fundamental and ingrained a culture of mistrust of the West is, particularly outside the more "cosmopolitan" major cities, but also within them. It's not that Russians are standoffish or openly critical on a personal level, but rather that any discussion of the international political scene quickly reveals a reflexive scepticism of the motives of Western governments, the US in particular.

Or at least, that's been my experience, anyway... :-)

Precisely. The Russians have a mindset that appears to be paranoia, but look over the past two centuries: France invades in 1812, Germany in 1914 and 1945. Heck, you can go back to Sweden invading in 1706(?) and the innumerable wars with Ottoman Turkey. Through all of this, the Russians have failed in their centuries-old goal of securing a warm water port, and their attempts to establish two-way trade have not borne much fruit.

The Russians feel they have little to gain and everything to lose by trusting the "West," and they always point to the invasions as the source. Plus, there was that whole "French language of the Tsar's court" in the 16th and 17th centuries that further pissed them off.

I know some people at RSP would like to dovetail this into political theater, but the Russia-US antagonism is truly an existential threat. Putting on our liberal/conservative hats only helps Russia, and misses the issue entirely.
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Robert Wesley
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Shadrach wrote:
Putin's death can't come too soon for the good of the Russian people.
mutton_chops wrote:


I'd avoid Sushi for a while after this, if I were you.

shake WERE you ever 'strolling' one day in Siberia then don't EAT the ""yellow snow"" nor caravangoldencamel~coal
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J.D. Hall
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GROGnads wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
Putin's death can't come too soon for the good of the Russian people.
mutton_chops wrote:


I'd avoid Sushi for a while after this, if I were you.

shake WERE you ever 'strolling' one day in Siberia then don't EAT the ""yellow snow"" nor caravangoldencamel~coal

What if I'm riding a pygmy pony and I'm a dental floss tycoon?
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This should be a fair warning to American voters. This is what you get when you elect a self grandiosing demagogue.
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Adam Alleman
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MWChapel wrote:
This should be a fair warning to American voters. This is what you get when you elect a self grandiosing demagogue.


He hasn't threatened to jail his opponent after the election... Oh wait.
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Greg Michealson
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Drew1365 wrote:
Brickmaster wrote:
So, this story seems to cement in mind the absolute necessity of keeping Trump out of the White House. I guess that was your point, right?


You tell me if continuing the same idiotic foreign policy as we've had for the last 8 years is a good thing or not.

Remember who ran the State Department and got us to this point. (And the clown who's running it now is no better. Arguably worse.)


Right, we need a President that will work with Russia in its quest to annex the rest of Ukraine, Georgia, etc.

Please tell us again what Obama should have done to prevent Russia from annexing Crimea and attacking the Syrian rebels? Don't keep us waiting.
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Greg Michealson
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Drew1365 wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
Salo sila wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
Putin's death can't come too soon for the good of the Russian people.


There isn't a liberal candidate open to the world to take his place, mind. Someone worse is possible.


The likely result is an internal power struggle, weakening all involved. It'd be messy short term but with a potential good outcome, considering the alternative is the continuation of a slow slide into economic collapse and military overextension, it seems an improvement.


This seems like wishcasting -- that Russia will take care of the Putin problem on its own.

What if they don't?


You seem to agree that Putin is a problem and yet you want a President that will cozy up to him? That doesn't make sense.

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Todd McMurray

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mrspank wrote:
Drew1365 wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
Salo sila wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
Putin's death can't come too soon for the good of the Russian people.


There isn't a liberal candidate open to the world to take his place, mind. Someone worse is possible.


The likely result is an internal power struggle, weakening all involved. It'd be messy short term but with a potential good outcome, considering the alternative is the continuation of a slow slide into economic collapse and military overextension, it seems an improvement.


This seems like wishcasting -- that Russia will take care of the Putin problem on its own.

What if they don't?


You seem to agree that Putin is a problem and yet you want a President that will cozy up to him? That doesn't make sense.



Drewber just oozes runny poo... don't look for a logical grouping of corn nibblets within the mess.
 
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David Dearlove
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Drew1365 wrote:
Brickmaster wrote:
So, this story seems to cement in mind the absolute necessity of keeping Trump out of the White House. I guess that was your point, right?


You tell me if continuing the same idiotic foreign policy as we've had for the last 8 years is a good thing or not.

Remember who ran the State Department and got us to this point. (And the clown who's running it now is no better. Arguably worse.)

OK hillary phones you up and makes you her secretary of state. What policy would you follow with the Russians?
 
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Michael Pustilnik
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mutton_chops wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
Putin's death can't come too soon for the good of the Russian people.


I'd avoid Sushi for a while after this, if I were you.



No, the pellet with the poison was in the vessel with the pestle the green tea, not the chalice with the palace sushi.
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Mutton Chops
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MikePustilnik wrote:
mutton_chops wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
Putin's death can't come too soon for the good of the Russian people.


I'd avoid Sushi for a while after this, if I were you.



No, the pellet with the poison was in the vessel with the pestle the green tea, not the chalice with the palace sushi.


I know, I know, but the sushi was what caught all the headlines over here - perhaps because there's still a trace of mistrust in the minds of The Great British Public for something as wildly exotic...
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David Dearlove
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mutton_chops wrote:
MikePustilnik wrote:
mutton_chops wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
Putin's death can't come too soon for the good of the Russian people.


I'd avoid Sushi for a while after this, if I were you.



No, the pellet with the poison was in the vessel with the pestle the green tea, not the chalice with the palace sushi.


I know, I know, but the sushi was what caught all the headlines over here - perhaps because there's still a trace of mistrust in the minds of The Great British Public for something as wildly exotic...

I think letting Putin get away with murdering a British Citizen in London with Polonium was a huge mistake. The waist should have made sure he understood a line had been crossed.
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Michael Pustilnik
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DavidDearlove wrote:

I think letting Putin get away with murdering a British Citizen in London with Polonium was a huge mistake. The waist should have made sure he understood a line had been crossed.


On an emotional level, I agree with you. Putin deserved to get a taste of his own polonium-210. There were some diplomatic consequences for British-Russian relations, but these consequences didn't seem to have an effect on Putin's behavior. What else do you think the British or American governments should have done?

I do think it is important to never forget this incident as long as Putin remains in power. Dealing with a monster like Putin requires strength and resolve.
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