Graham Dean
United Kingdom
Bedford
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hi All,

The rules are quite clear about how to use the new Final Scoring tiles:

Quote:
During setup, shuffle the Final Scoring tiles face-down, draw one and place it face-up next to the game board. this tile will be scored after the Area scoring at the end of the game.
p3 of the expansion rulebook, in "The New Final Scoring" section

My question is, does anyone know why the new final scoring is in addition to the existing final scoring, rather than instead of it? My question arises from two observations:
1. The Final Scoring Tiles look like they were designed to overlay the Final Scoring section on the game board. Not proof of anything, of course - it could just be continuity of graphic design.
2. You can only have one "Final Scoring". Now we have the original final scoring, followed by an additional final scoring. Only a somantic point, but bothersome (to me, at least). Perhaps it's better to say "End Game scoring" instead.

Can anyone shed any light on this? None of it is a big deal, and the rules seem clear enough, but it just seems odd somehow.

Thanks.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeff Michaud
United States
Longwood
Florida
flag msg tools
On-Line Want List Generator - Hopefully Making Math Trades a Little Bit Easier
badge
Captain Kirk, Captain Picard, Captain Sisko, Captain Janeway, Captain Archer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Uncle G wrote:
My question is, does anyone know why the new final scoring is in addition to the existing final scoring, rather than instead of it?

because it would break the game
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Graham Dean
United Kingdom
Bedford
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
JeffyJeff wrote:
Uncle G wrote:
My question is, does anyone know why the new final scoring is in addition to the existing final scoring, rather than instead of it?

because it would break the game

Really. How so? Same points available, but awarded on a different basis. I can't see a mechanism for breaking the game that way.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Gambia
Brest
msg tools
Avatar
The most plausible explanation to me is that it nerfs fav11.

Network plays (like expanding aggressively without fav11 in round 1 or cutting an opponent connection) are rewarded more by final scorings.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Graham Dean
United Kingdom
Bedford
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Which one is Fav11? I keep seeing the abbreviations used, but I've never been able to find where they're defined.

We're relative newbie players of TM - one of our group has just bought a copy and is wanting to play every couple of weeks to really dig deep and learn, and he's currently beating us by a lot and getting rather good, but the rest of us can't really speak on the forums here with any kind of authority.

With that said, I would have thought 18/12/6 points for final scoring was already quite a lot, which rewards a well spread out and large settlement, and two have another similar scoring awarded on similar basis seems overpowered.

Have any regular/more experienced TM players played with these and reported back on how the extra final scorings change the gameplay strategies?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert
Germany
Bocholt
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Uncle G wrote:
Which one is Fav11? I keep seeing the abbreviations used, but I've never been able to find where they're defined.
Find it here: Terra Mystica Terminology Reference

Uncle G wrote:
We're relative newbie players of TM - one of our group has just bought a copy and is wanting to play every couple of weeks to really dig deep and learn, and he's currently beating us by a lot and getting rather good, but the rest of us can't really speak on the forums here with any kind of authority.

With that said, I would have thought 18/12/6 points for final scoring was already quite a lot, which rewards a well spread out and large settlement, and two have another similar scoring awarded on similar basis seems overpowered.

Have any regular/more experienced TM players played with these and reported back on how the extra final scorings change the gameplay strategies?
The final scorings certainly change gameplay, strategies and also faction selection. E.g. if the extra scoring is for clusters, forsaking a third (or even the second) town in favor of a few more dots on the map often is the better approach. Or if e.g. the extra scoring is SH-SA distance, then factions which naturally want both of these being built are more attractive than factions where e.g. the SH is weak and/or optional (e.g. Chaos Magicians, Halflings, Cultists). And if you still pick one of these factions, your incentive to actually build both the SH and the SA increases significantly.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Graham Dean
United Kingdom
Bedford
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
DocCool wrote:
The final scorings certainly change gameplay, strategies and also faction selection. E.g. if the extra scoring is for clusters, forsaking a third (or even the second) town in favor of a few more dots on the map often is the better approach. Or if e.g. the extra scoring is SH-SA distance, then factions which naturally want both of these being built are more attractive than factions where e.g. the SH is weak and/or optional (e.g. Chaos Magicians, Halflings, Cultists). And if you still pick one of these factions, your incentive to actually build both the SH and the SA increases significantly.
Thanks for the link.

What you say makes sense. Would the same effect happen if the new final scoring was a replacement, do you think, or are the strategic changes only made if the end game scoring is increased rather than altered?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dawid
Poland
Cracow
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I actually stopped using bonus final scoring tiles in my games, because I don't like their influence on the game.

My feeling is that originally there was some kind of balance between area and cults final scoring - in a way that some factions are better at fighting for the area and others naturally are doing better at cults.
With additional map based scoring tiles I feel that factions that are on their own better in fighting for area seem to have easier time doing also better towards additional scoring, and I don't like how in that sense additional scoring tiles favor some factions.

I wanted to try variant where you would replace original area scoring with new one but I didn't have good occasion yet.

I actually had conversation on this topic with my colleagues and one of them gave one good argument to why a new scoring might be in addition to original one, and that is because original area scoring seems to reward your overall development in the game.
But as I can give some credit to that I steel have my own feelings
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Graham Dean
United Kingdom
Bedford
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Interesting. I'm happy to play with them as written in the rules, but might try playing with the final scoring tiles as a replacement sometime as a house rule. I still need to get a lot more games under my belt before I try that, though.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert
Germany
Bocholt
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Some of the additional final scoring tiles have a higher correlation to the network scoring of the base game than others. Here's my view sorted from low correlation (i.e. you can do well in that additional final scoring even if your network has just 11 hexes or so, which usually means few or no points from network scoring) to high correlation (i.e. a good score does usually require a large network):

- SH-SA distance: is slightly easier to achieve if your network has many hexes anyway, since they offer you bridge spots to connect the two buildings via shipping (tunnel/carpet flight), but you can do well without competing for largest network
- edge: obviously, to get many hexes along the edge, you need to get many hexes in general ; also keep in mind that the edge hexes need to be connected, so some non-edge hexes will be required for this purpose (and for the purpose of leeching and mid-game towns)
- distance: unless you're playing Mermaids (who can get maximum distance with just 6 hexes on the base game map and with just 4 hexes on F&I side 1), you'll need a bunch of connection hexes to do well in distance, which all also count towards network
- clusters: with two towns, an 11 hex network can get you 6 clusters, which is ok but usually not a winner; with one town, you can get up to 9 clusters, which is likely to win this additional final scoring. Still, every extra hex helps for both network and cluster scoring

2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Graham Dean
United Kingdom
Bedford
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I guess it's the high correlation scoring which was behind my lazy assumption that you used one instead of and not as well as. Two final scoring tiles in play which are closely aligned would de-emphasise the achievement of getting towns, and increase the emphasis of large networks.

I'd be interested if people would post their experiences of playing with the final scoring tiles in the correct way (per the rules) and also in the incorrect way (replacing area scoring), if anyone tries it.

I would expect that any player scoring well on area scoring would also score well on whichever optional final scoring was in play.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert
Germany
Bocholt
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Uncle G wrote:
I'd be interested if people would post their experiences of playing with the final scoring tiles in the correct way (per the rules) and also in the incorrect way (replacing area scoring), if anyone tries it.
There are thousands of games on record which use the rules correctly, but only Juho, the owner of terra.snellman.net, could extract a correlation between expansion scoring and network scoring across the game database.

For incorrect usage, there is no such database, so that part of your interest may remain unquenched, or at least unsatisfied since there will be no more than a few datapoints from personal anecdotes.

Uncle G wrote:
I would expect that any player scoring well on area scoring would also score well on whichever optional final scoring was in play.
Not all the time, but of course more often than not: that's what positive correlation means.

Forming towns remains a worthwhile goal in its own right, as they not only give you VP, but also a resource boost which helps you to overcome shortages and thus allows you to build even more stuff, or even get things which are otherwise prohibitively expensive or unreachable at the moment, or available only via town tile, e.g. an extra key, or increased distance for Fakirs.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Graham Dean
United Kingdom
Bedford
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I think my curiosity is satisfied anyway. I was worried that there had been some sort of mistake in the rules (unlikely) or that by introducing them the game would become unbalanced. However it seems that more experienced players are happy with them, so I'm much more comfortable about introducing the new final scoring into my games at some point in the future - maybe not quite yet as I still have a lot to learn about the basic game, but eventually.

I'd still be interested in hearing about playing with a final scoring instead of area scoring as a variant, if anyone tries it and would care to post about the experience. Many thanks for the helpful responses.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert
Germany
Bocholt
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
There's really only one thing from the F&I expansion which you should introduce before your players have played a dozen games or more of TM: That's Variable Turn Order. Use it right away, don't wait! It's the one thing which I already add to the base game rules in introduction games.

As mentioned above, new maps and/or additional final scoring are additions which change the attractiveness of the existing factions, and unless your players have at least a clue how these may impact a faction, I don't recommend adding them. Once they do, I suggest to introduce them separately from the new factions. The implications of the new factions are more difficult to assess than those of the new maps and the additional final scoring, so I recommend to add them last.

Auctioning is something which only makes sense with decent experience, e.g. 25+ games. And once you're there, don't auction by the F&I rules, but rather use a better system.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Graham Dean
United Kingdom
Bedford
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Yes, we already use the variable turn order. Thanks for the link to alternate bidding rules as well. Quite a lot of games to go before we would need them, but it's good to know they're there.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.