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We Brits at least had a choice on Brexit. You could see two options, if you didn't like one the other one was clearly better suited to your world views.

But in the next election you have someone who is a liar, fickle and bought off by corporations, someone who voted for the Iraq war and was happy to campaign against gay rights/equality for women when the polls were in that sides favour. On the other hand, you have a big business buffoon who's idea of politics is trolling as many people as possible. Has no morals when it comes to non-white people and is quite happy to throw as many people under the bus as possible.

Poor Bernie...Anyway how are you coping with the fact that you cannot win in this election?
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scott3387 wrote:
We Brits at least had a choice on Brexit. You could see two options, if you didn't like one the other one was clearly better suited to your world views.

But in the next election you have someone who is a liar, fickle and bought off by corporations, someone who voted for the Iraq war and was happy to campaign against gay rights/equality for women when the polls were in that sides favour. On the other hand, you have a big business buffoon who's idea of politics is trolling as many people as possible. Has no morals when it comes to non-white people and is quite happy to throw as many people under the bus as possible.

Poor Bernie...Anyway how are you coping with the fact that you cannot win in this election?


You see some of us aren't suckered by the multi-decade propaganda campaign, and thus see at least one good option.
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scott3387 wrote:
We Brits at least had a choice on Brexit. You could see two options, if you didn't like one the other one was clearly better suited to your world views.

But in the next election you have someone who is a liar, fickle and bought off by corporations, someone who voted for the Iraq war and was happy to campaign against gay rights/equality for women when the polls were in that sides favour. On the other hand, you have a big business buffoon who's idea of politics is trolling as many people as possible. Has no morals when it comes to non-white people and is quite happy to throw as many people under the bus as possible.

Poor Bernie...Anyway how are you coping with the fact that you cannot win in this election?


The choice is between the flawed HRC and completely unacceptable-at-any-level DJT.
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More like toxic sludge cake vs plain whole wheat bread thats a little stale.

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Americans want an outsider businessman?

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scott3387 wrote:
We Brits at least had a choice on Brexit. You could see two options, if you didn't like one the other one was clearly better suited to your world views.

But in the next election you have someone who is a liar, fickle and bought off by corporations, someone who voted for the Iraq war and was happy to campaign against gay rights/equality for women when the polls were in that sides favour. On the other hand, you have a big business buffoon who's idea of politics is trolling as many people as possible. Has no morals when it comes to non-white people and is quite happy to throw as many people under the bus as possible.

Poor Bernie...Anyway how are you coping with the fact that you cannot win in this election?


Yes, before you grow up, you see the world as a choice between all good and everything else. Then once you mature, you realize there are never ideal choices when it comes to complex decisions.

It really is just about minimizing the bad and accentuating the good.

When President Clinton takes the oath in January 2017, the best politician and choice will have been made.

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windsagio wrote:
scott3387 wrote:
We Brits at least had a choice on Brexit. You could see two options, if you didn't like one the other one was clearly better suited to your world views.

But in the next election you have someone who is a liar, fickle and bought off by corporations, someone who voted for the Iraq war and was happy to campaign against gay rights/equality for women when the polls were in that sides favour. On the other hand, you have a big business buffoon who's idea of politics is trolling as many people as possible. Has no morals when it comes to non-white people and is quite happy to throw as many people under the bus as possible.

Poor Bernie...Anyway how are you coping with the fact that you cannot win in this election?


You see some of us aren't suckered by the multi-decade propaganda campaign, and thus see at least one good option.


If you accept either as anything than bottom tier you are suffering from an ideology infection.
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I'm pretty pleased with the outcome of Hillary Clinton's election, but concerned about the damage the Trump campaign has done to our national public life. Think about the accusations you just listed against her:

1. Liar
Certainly true, but no worse than usual for politics.

2. Fickle
Really? I have the impression that she changes with the times to some extent, but that doesn't make her any more fickle than America. And there are some very consistent trends in her policy preferences which resist even that.

3. Bought off by corporations
Again, yeah, but our political funding apparatus requires that, too. It sucks. I keep hoping Lessig will get back into the mix and primary her next time, not because I expect him to win, but because I think he'll bring important issues to the forefront of peoples' minds.

4. Voted for the Iraq war
Meh. There was near-unanimity on that at the time among our politicians. I didn't like it, but if they believed Bush, I can't really blame them for it if they own it as an error.

5. Happy to campaign against gay rights/equality for women when the polls were in that sides' favor
This seems like a different description for the same behavior you described as "fickle". I also don't know that it's true--when has she ever campaigned against equal rights for women? As for gay rights, my impression is that she's always been at least as progressive as the average American. Heck, I'm not sure I would have supported gay marriage in 1995. She hasn't seemed to me like a leader on this issue, which is sad, but she's come around, and I think we've probably had enough victories on gay rights recently that it might be in our long-term best interests to have a president who doesn't push particularly hard on that for the next eight years. I don't know why it makes conservatives feel so alienated, but it does, and I sort of like that Clinton is pretty centrist. Indeed, I think Obama was also fairly centrist, and I'm glad of it. I think nominating presidents in the mainstream is the sign of a responsible party. I wish we had two in this country.

But, I'm generally a gradualist, not a radical. So it's not surprising that I'd see Clinton as a pretty good option. I also have some hope that she'll be able to put some more focus on families, and that this will bring the country together. In all our fighting for the rights of everyone to structure their lives however they like without their government being biased against them because of it, I fear that Democrats have failed to communicate that one of the ways we'd like people to be able to thrive is in families, and that we're concerned about their welfare, too.
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darthhugo wrote:
scott3387 wrote:
We Brits at least had a choice on Brexit. You could see two options, if you didn't like one the other one was clearly better suited to your world views.

But in the next election you have someone who is a liar, fickle and bought off by corporations, someone who voted for the Iraq war and was happy to campaign against gay rights/equality for women when the polls were in that sides favour. On the other hand, you have a big business buffoon who's idea of politics is trolling as many people as possible. Has no morals when it comes to non-white people and is quite happy to throw as many people under the bus as possible.

Poor Bernie...Anyway how are you coping with the fact that you cannot win in this election?


Yes, before you grow up, you see the world as a choice between all good and everything else. Then once you mature, you realize there are never ideal choices when it comes to complex decisions.

It really is just about minimizing the bad and accentuating the good.

When President Clinton takes the oath in January 2017, the best politician and choice will have been made.



No one is perfect but at least Sanders had integrity and that to me made him as close to ideal as you were going to get. I don't even agree with many of his policies but at least he had a history of consistency of views. Shame the DNC was...persuaded to select someone of the same tier as Trump in quality.
 
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I'm not concerned one bit actually, because I understand the results of both options.
 
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scott3387 wrote:
If you accept either as anything than bottom tier you are suffering from an ideology infection.


Can you name some top-tier living options? I understand that asking that might be challenging in the US context, as you're across the pond, so feel free to choose from among your own politicians.

You're obviously right that it's possible everyone who sees Clinton as pretty good is ideologically blinded, but presumably you're also aware of the possibility that you're setting the bar so high no one can clear it in order to be able to make the equally ideological point that both candidates are awful.
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scott3387 wrote:
darthhugo wrote:
scott3387 wrote:
We Brits at least had a choice on Brexit. You could see two options, if you didn't like one the other one was clearly better suited to your world views.

But in the next election you have someone who is a liar, fickle and bought off by corporations, someone who voted for the Iraq war and was happy to campaign against gay rights/equality for women when the polls were in that sides favour. On the other hand, you have a big business buffoon who's idea of politics is trolling as many people as possible. Has no morals when it comes to non-white people and is quite happy to throw as many people under the bus as possible.

Poor Bernie...Anyway how are you coping with the fact that you cannot win in this election?


Yes, before you grow up, you see the world as a choice between all good and everything else. Then once you mature, you realize there are never ideal choices when it comes to complex decisions.

It really is just about minimizing the bad and accentuating the good.

When President Clinton takes the oath in January 2017, the best politician and choice will have been made.



No one is perfect but at least Sanders had integrity and that to me made him as close to ideal as you were going to get. I don't even agree with many of his policies but at least he had a history of consistency of views. Shame the DNC was...persuaded to select someone of the same tier as Trump in quality.


This is like debating what would have happened if Hitler was killed by Stauffenberg's plot.

Just armchair masturbation.

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rinelk wrote:
I'm pretty pleased with the outcome of Hillary Clinton's election, but concerned about the damage the Trump campaign has done to our national public life. Think about the accusations you just listed against her:

1. Liar
Certainly true, but no worse than usual for politics.

She has one of the worst records of any politician

2. Fickle
Really? I have the impression that she changes with the times to some extent, but that doesn't make her any more fickle than America. And there are some very consistent trends in her policy preferences which resist even that.

If you chart her views she pretty much aligns with general voter sentiment.

3. Bought off by corporations
Again, yeah, but our political funding apparatus requires that, too. It sucks. I keep hoping Lessig will get back into the mix and primary her next time, not because I expect him to win, but because I think he'll bring important issues to the forefront of peoples' minds.

No other politican takes vast sums from middle eastern governments and non-US HQ multinationals through a proxy fund to get around not being able to accept donations from other countries.

4. Voted for the Iraq war
Meh. There was near-unanimity on that at the time among our politicians. I didn't like it, but if they believed Bush, I can't really blame them for it if they own it as an error.

She had more information than "99%" of the people involved in that decision and she was still for the war. I argue it's because it was the fashion at the time.

5. Happy to campaign against gay rights/equality for women when the polls were in that sides' favor
This seems like a different description for the same behavior you described as "fickle". I also don't know that it's true--when has she ever campaigned against equal rights for women? As for gay rights, my impression is that she's always been at least as progressive as the average American. Heck, I'm not sure I would have supported gay marriage in 1995. She is on record in 2004 as saying marriage is a sacred bond between man and woman She hasn't seemed to me like a leader on this issue, which is sad, but she's come around, and I think we've probably had enough victories on gay rights recently that it might be in our long-term best interests to have a president who doesn't push particularly hard on that for the next eight years. I don't know why it makes conservatives feel so alienated, but it does, and I sort of like that Clinton is pretty centrist. Indeed, I think Obama was also fairly centrist, and I'm glad of it. I think nominating presidents in the mainstream is the sign of a responsible party. I wish we had two in this country.

But, I'm generally a gradualist, not a radical. So it's not surprising that I'd see Clinton as a pretty good option. I also have some hope that she'll be able to put some more focus on families, and that this will bring the country together. In all our fighting for the rights of everyone to structure their lives however they like without their government being biased against them because of it, I fear that Democrats have failed to communicate that one of the ways we'd like people to be able to thrive is in families, and that we're concerned about their welfare, too.
 
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darthhugo wrote:
scott3387 wrote:
darthhugo wrote:
scott3387 wrote:
We Brits at least had a choice on Brexit. You could see two options, if you didn't like one the other one was clearly better suited to your world views.

But in the next election you have someone who is a liar, fickle and bought off by corporations, someone who voted for the Iraq war and was happy to campaign against gay rights/equality for women when the polls were in that sides favour. On the other hand, you have a big business buffoon who's idea of politics is trolling as many people as possible. Has no morals when it comes to non-white people and is quite happy to throw as many people under the bus as possible.

Poor Bernie...Anyway how are you coping with the fact that you cannot win in this election?


Yes, before you grow up, you see the world as a choice between all good and everything else. Then once you mature, you realize there are never ideal choices when it comes to complex decisions.

It really is just about minimizing the bad and accentuating the good.

When President Clinton takes the oath in January 2017, the best politician and choice will have been made.



No one is perfect but at least Sanders had integrity and that to me made him as close to ideal as you were going to get. I don't even agree with many of his policies but at least he had a history of consistency of views. Shame the DNC was...persuaded to select someone of the same tier as Trump in quality.


This is like debating what would have happened if Hitler was killed by Stauffenberg's plot.

Just armchair masturbation.



Well you had your 'choice' (haha like the plebs ever mattered) and now it options are terrible and very bad. Saying one is better than the other and therefore I'm voting because it's the 'least bad' doesn't make the options any sweeter.
 
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rinelk wrote:
scott3387 wrote:
If you accept either as anything than bottom tier you are suffering from an ideology infection.


Can you name some top-tier living options? I understand that asking that might be challenging in the US context, as you're across the pond, so feel free to choose from among your own politicians.

You're obviously right that it's possible everyone who sees Clinton as pretty good is ideologically blinded, but presumably you're also aware of the possibility that you're setting the bar so high no one can clear it in order to be able to make the equally ideological point that both candidates are awful.


As I already hinted, Sanders. I don't even like his positions but he is very respectable, honest and consistent. What more do you need in a good option?
 
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scott3387 wrote:
windsagio wrote:
scott3387 wrote:
We Brits at least had a choice on Brexit. You could see two options, if you didn't like one the other one was clearly better suited to your world views.

But in the next election you have someone who is a liar, fickle and bought off by corporations, someone who voted for the Iraq war and was happy to campaign against gay rights/equality for women when the polls were in that sides favour. On the other hand, you have a big business buffoon who's idea of politics is trolling as many people as possible. Has no morals when it comes to non-white people and is quite happy to throw as many people under the bus as possible.

Poor Bernie...Anyway how are you coping with the fact that you cannot win in this election?


You see some of us aren't suckered by the multi-decade propaganda campaign, and thus see at least one good option.


If you accept either as anything than bottom tier you are suffering from an ideology infection.


I see below that you're a burner. Not even one with the excuse of being in the US.

You like the purity that can only come from having no power, I get that.

I on the other hand like people I think can be effective. Even more, I've been following this for a long time, and probably in a detail that you haven't bothered to.

She's fine, she's good even. This is like Americans waxing poetic about Brexit.
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windsagio wrote:
scott3387 wrote:
windsagio wrote:
scott3387 wrote:
We Brits at least had a choice on Brexit. You could see two options, if you didn't like one the other one was clearly better suited to your world views.

But in the next election you have someone who is a liar, fickle and bought off by corporations, someone who voted for the Iraq war and was happy to campaign against gay rights/equality for women when the polls were in that sides favour. On the other hand, you have a big business buffoon who's idea of politics is trolling as many people as possible. Has no morals when it comes to non-white people and is quite happy to throw as many people under the bus as possible.

Poor Bernie...Anyway how are you coping with the fact that you cannot win in this election?


You see some of us aren't suckered by the multi-decade propaganda campaign, and thus see at least one good option.


If you accept either as anything than bottom tier you are suffering from an ideology infection.


I see below that you're a burner. Not even one with the excuse of being in the US.

You like the purity that can only come from having no power, I get that.

I on the other hand like people I think can be effective. Even more, I've been following this for a long time, and probably in a detail that you haven't bothered to.

She's fine, she's good even. This is like Americans waxing poetic about Brexit.


Oh she'll get things done alright...for her goldmann sachs friends. She has no interest in anything below CEO level. Trumps a c**t but at least he isn't taking funding from people she will have to give concessions to.

I believe Trump is actually better. He will just tie the Senate up for 4 years while hillary might actually get some evil done.

P.s. the 'I know more than you' attitude is cute but pointless online.
 
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If she gets too chummy with the banks she will loose big time in 2020 possibly be primaried. Once SCOTUS is shored up she's irrelevant to me.
 
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scott3387 wrote:
Oh she'll get things done alright...for her goldmann sachs friends.


That's how it's done.
Wall Street has likely already chosen her cabinet and closest advisors.

Quote:
The most important revelation in the WikiLeaks dump of John Podesta’s emails has nothing to do with Hillary Clinton. The messages go all the way back to 2008, when Podesta served as co-chair of President-elect Barack Obama’s transition team. And a month before the election, the key staffing for that future administration was almost entirely in place, revealing that some of the most crucial decisions an administration can make occur well before a vote has been cast.

Michael Froman, who is now U.S. trade representative but at the time was an executive at Citigroup, wrote an email to Podesta on October 6, 2008, with the subject “Lists.” Froman used a Citigroup email address. He attached three documents: a list of women for top administration jobs, a list of non-white candidates, and a sample outline of 31 cabinet-level positions and who would fill them. “The lists will continue to grow,” Froman wrote to Podesta, “but these are the names to date that seem to be coming up as recommended by various sources for senior level jobs.”

The cabinet list ended up being almost entirely on the money. It correctly identified Eric Holder for the Justice Department, Janet Napolitano for Homeland Security, Robert Gates for Defense, Rahm Emanuel for chief of staff, Peter Orszag for the Office of Management and Budget, Arne Duncan for Education, Eric Shinseki for Veterans Affairs, Kathleen Sebelius for Health and Human Services, Melody Barnes for the Domestic Policy Council, and more. For the Treasury, three possibilities were on the list: Robert Rubin, Larry Summers, and Timothy Geithner.

This was October 6. The election was November 4. And yet Froman, an executive at Citigroup, which would ultimately become the recipient of the largest bailout from the federal government during the financial crisis, had mapped out virtually the entire Obama cabinet, a month before votes were counted. And according to the Froman/Podesta emails, lists were floating around even before that.

Many already suspected that Froman, a longtime Obama consigliere, did the key economic policy hiring while part of the transition team. We didn’t know he had so much influence that he could lock in key staff that early, without fanfare, while everyone was busy trying to get Obama elected. The WikiLeaks emails show even earlier planning; by September the transition was getting pre-clearance to assist nominees with financial disclosure forms.


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scott3387 wrote:


I believe Trump is actually better. He will just tie the Senate up for 4 years while hillary might actually get some evil done.


Funny how these "Two Ways to Die" folks always tend to point their favor at Trump, even while calling him one of the wrong choices.

We get it, you're not for Trump, but *wink, wink*...totally for Trump. WE GET IT!

But for real the only thing I worry about Clinton, is I agreed with TARP, but I also agreed with Glass-Steagall. The latter I don't think she would embrace, even though I wish she would.(And something even more comprehensive)
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rcbevco wrote:
If she gets too chummy with the banks . . .


"If"? That ship sailed long ago, buddy.
 
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remorseless1 wrote:
People who still pay for a queen and an entire royal family really shouldn't say much about other countries' governing systems. Over here we said "God Fuck the King" 241 years ago. Best damn thing we ever did.


Pay? The income from increased tourism (You yanks seem to love the Queen) more than pays for them.
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Trump gave you a 3rd choice that great america patriot friend of his - Putin.
 
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scott3387 wrote:
1. Liar
Certainly true, but no worse than usual for politics.

She has one of the worst records of any politician


This seems inaccurate to me. Can you explain why you believe it?

scott3387 wrote:
2. Fickle
Really? I have the impression that she changes with the times to some extent, but that doesn't make her any more fickle than America. And there are some very consistent trends in her policy preferences which resist even that.

If you chart her views she pretty much aligns with general voter sentiment.


So you agree that she's no more fickle than America?

scott3387 wrote:
3. Bought off by corporations
Again, yeah, but our political funding apparatus requires that, too. It sucks. I keep hoping Lessig will get back into the mix and primary her next time, not because I expect him to win, but because I think he'll bring important issues to the forefront of peoples' minds.

No other politican takes vast sums from middle eastern governments and non-US HQ multinationals through a proxy fund to get around not being able to accept donations from other countries.


I assume we can agree that middle eastern governments aren't corporations, so that's irrelevant to the question of whether she's bought off by corporations. Do you actually believe that no other politician takes lots of money from multinationals not headquartered in the US via their PAC? I'm pretty sure that's false; if you'd like, I'd be happy to look into it more and give you data.

scott3387 wrote:
4. Voted for the Iraq war
Meh. There was near-unanimity on that at the time among our politicians. I didn't like it, but if they believed Bush, I can't really blame them for it if they own it as an error.

She had more information than "99%" of the people involved in that decision and she was still for the war. I argue it's because it was the fashion at the time.


Why do you believe she had more information than the other senators? I've not heard that claim before.

scott3387 wrote:
5. Happy to campaign against gay rights/equality for women when the polls were in that sides' favor
This seems like a different description for the same behavior you described as "fickle". I also don't know that it's true--when has she ever campaigned against equal rights for women? As for gay rights, my impression is that she's always been at least as progressive as the average American. Heck, I'm not sure I would have supported gay marriage in 1995. She is on record in 2004 as saying marriage is a sacred bond between man and woman


Yup. Kind of sucks, but I think that was the median view at the time.

Maybe this was unclear--I'm not that bothered by someone whose views are never worse than average, and sometimes better. It's okay with me for someone's views to change with the times. I think Clinton's been ahead of the curve on health care, which was a pretty foresightful and important thing to have as your principal concern in 1995. Looking back, rising health care costs have put massive stress on our safety net, been a tragic contributor to downward mobility, and seriously exacerbated the problem of wage stagnation. Even if that were the only thing she got more right than the average American, I think her policy views would be pretty decent.
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