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Subject: I only played once but I did enjoy it. I did have some issues I wanted to ask about though. rss

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H C
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My main concern was that at the end of the second scoring there was a player trailing by a lot of points, so she was clearly out of contention compared to us 4. Does this typically happen?

Does the big box have any sort of hidden scoring variant or something so players won't know just how much out of contention they are?

Next question. Do all players have access to the knowledge of how many cubes you have in your supply and on the board? I ask because anyone could reverse engineer the number in the Castillo from that, right? Or am I misunderstanding something?

Does this game always have a lot of take that :/? I like the euro and strategy of it but not the attackiness.
 
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Stephen Eckman
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NowOrNever88 wrote:
Next question. Do all players have access to the knowledge of how many cubes you have in your supply and on the board? I ask because anyone could reverse engineer the number in the Castillo from that, right? Or am I misunderstanding something?

If I remember right, you have to announce how many cubes you are putting in the Castillo when you do it, so that information is trackable anyway.
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steckman wrote:
NowOrNever88 wrote:
Next question. Do all players have access to the knowledge of how many cubes you have in your supply and on the board? I ask because anyone could reverse engineer the number in the Castillo from that, right? Or am I misunderstanding something?

If I remember right, you have to announce how many cubes you are putting in the Castillo when you do it, so that information is trackable anyway.


Yes but you might forget.
 
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Berthold Nüchter
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NowOrNever88 wrote:
My main concern was that at the end of the second scoring there was a player trailing by a lot of points, so she was clearly out of contention compared to us 4. Does this typically happen?

This is not typical but can happen easily. This game does not contain a mechanism that helps the players at the end and slows down the leading player. It's up to the players to concentrate on the leading player(s) and attacking them.

NowOrNever88 wrote:
Does the big box have any sort of hidden scoring variant or something so players won't know just how much out of contention they are?

no

NowOrNever88 wrote:
Next question. Do all players have access to the knowledge of how many cubes you have in your supply and on the board? I ask because anyone could reverse engineer the number in the Castillo from that, right? Or am I misunderstanding something?

yes, you are right

NowOrNever88 wrote:
Does this game always have a lot of take that :/? I like the euro and strategy of it but not the attackiness.

This game has very much interaction and is about attacking the other players. If you do not like that this is not a game for you. I love this feature.
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I see. I wish it had hidden scoring like Small World does. Its not as tense when you know youre out of contention completely :/

And yeah, I guess not for me.
 
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Berthold wrote:
NowOrNever88 wrote:
Does the big box have any sort of hidden scoring variant or something so players won't know just how much out of contention they are?

no

Hidden scoring variant: Grab a jar of loose change. Give each player a small opaque container (bag, box, etc). When you score points, put one cent per point in your container. After the final scoring round, all players count their change to find out who won.

Play for keeps variant: As above, but each player contributes an equal amount of spare change to the jar before the game. Winner takes all the change home. laugh
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Salman Qaisar
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NowOrNever88 wrote:

Does this game always have a lot of take that :/? I like the euro and strategy of it but not the attackiness.


Majority of Euro games don't have much direct player interaction of an attacking type.
Which means my group don't enjoy them.
So we are very glad that there are Eurogames like El Grande that do have it as a prominent feature.

I'm glad there are games that suit all players.
Regards, Sal
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ironregime wrote:
Berthold wrote:
NowOrNever88 wrote:
Does the big box have any sort of hidden scoring variant or something so players won't know just how much out of contention they are?

no

Hidden scoring variant: Grab a jar of loose change. Give each player a small opaque container (bag, box, etc). When you score points, put one cent per point in your container. After the final scoring round, all players count their change to find out who won.

Play for keeps variant: As above, but each player contributes an equal amount of spare change to the jar before the game. Winner takes all the change home. laugh


Haha I feel like I'd honestly be okay with all the issues in the game if the scoring was hidden, but I don't think I'd want to change the game that much/go through the effort sadly.
 
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Pete Goch
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El Grande would be a disaster with hidden scoring. The game relies on the player's ability to assess relative position and respond accordingly. Players need to know who is in the lead and by how much in order to make intelligent decisions. Obfuscating that with "hidden" scoring would make for a terrible game.
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O.Shane Balloun
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Zalman wrote:
NowOrNever88 wrote:

Does this game always have a lot of take that :/? I like the euro and strategy of it but not the attackiness.


Majority of Euro games don't have much direct player interaction of an attacking type.
Which means my group don't enjoy them.
So we are very glad that there are Eurogames like El Grande that do have it as a prominent feature.

I'm glad there are games that suit all players.
Regards, Sal


The most popular classic Euros all had attacking features in them; it wasn't until later development that indirect interaction came to be synonymous with the appellation "Euro."
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O.Shane Balloun
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NowOrNever88 wrote:
I see. I wish it had hidden scoring like Small World does. Its not as tense when you know youre out of contention completely :/

And yeah, I guess not for me.


You've played once. El Grande deeply rewards successive plays. There's no doubt in my mind the scores would tighten as people gain a tiny bit more experience.
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TheOneTrueZeke wrote:
El Grande would be a disaster with hidden scoring. The game relies on the player's ability to assess relative position and respond accordingly. Players need to know who is in the lead and by how much in order to make intelligent decisions. Obfuscating that with "hidden" scoring would make for a terrible game.


You can still make intelligent decisions based on board state and players would still have a general track of how many points and who is probably in the lead.

The idea that players would only make stupid or mediocre decisions if there was no VP track is ridiculous.
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grammatoncleric wrote:
NowOrNever88 wrote:
I see. I wish it had hidden scoring like Small World does. Its not as tense when you know youre out of contention completely :/

And yeah, I guess not for me.


You've played once. El Grande deeply rewards successive plays. There's no doubt in my mind the scores would tighten as people gain a tiny bit more experience.


Well, yes but only for those who play a fair bit. If I introduce to new people, I don't want someone sitting out for 30 minutes out of contention. It's a form of pseudo player elimination.
 
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Just to be clear. I'm not saying EG would be better with hidden VP scoring.

I would just prefer it if it did have that.
 
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Pete Goch
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NowOrNever88 wrote:
TheOneTrueZeke wrote:
El Grande would be a disaster with hidden scoring. The game relies on the player's ability to assess relative position and respond accordingly. Players need to know who is in the lead and by how much in order to make intelligent decisions. Obfuscating that with "hidden" scoring would make for a terrible game.


You can still make intelligent decisions based on board state and players would still have a general track of how many points and who is probably in the lead.

The idea that players would only make stupid or mediocre decisions if there was no VP track is ridiculous.


And yet I see it all the time in games with pseudo hidden information. The poorer your information the poorer your decisions will inevitably be.
 
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O.Shane Balloun
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NowOrNever88 wrote:
grammatoncleric wrote:
NowOrNever88 wrote:
I see. I wish it had hidden scoring like Small World does. Its not as tense when you know youre out of contention completely :/

And yeah, I guess not for me.


You've played once. El Grande deeply rewards successive plays. There's no doubt in my mind the scores would tighten as people gain a tiny bit more experience.


Well, yes but only for those who play a fair bit. If I introduce to new people, I don't want someone sitting out for 30 minutes out of contention. It's a form of pseudo player elimination.


I understand that. One idea would be to introduce the game, play 3 rounds, score. Then mulligan and start over so they can see the spread and how important it is to control the perceived leader and watch the castillo as well. Because of the game theoretical choice of where to place the caballeros from the castillo during scoring, there's a bit of bluffing that adds to the scoring variance, but you don't need very many times to "get it."
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Ken Bush
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TheOneTrueZeke wrote:
El Grande would be a disaster with hidden scoring. The game relies on the player's ability to assess relative position and respond accordingly. Players need to know who is in the lead and by how much in order to make intelligent decisions. Obfuscating that with "hidden" scoring would make for a terrible game.

This! This! And more This.
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you only played it once, I would give it another go. It does take some plays to get to know the cards and to plan different strategies. Even just to understand the different action cards should take a few plays.
Therefore, every time you play this game with a new player, the chances are that the new player is going to fall behind.
Having said that, there is not doubt that EG it is a confrontational game, very confrontational and every turn.
With more plays the issue is more than once a player go ahead with points, it is easy to target him, and can become a bit of everyone against him.
Anyway, I really like it, but like you, 'direct confrontation' games are not my favorites, so I rather play it online at yucata, where is like playing with machines

In that site, you will find that the knights you put in the castle are open information. I prefer it that way since there is not point to keep it pseudo secret when you could simply get a pencil and paper and note everything down.
happy games!
 
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Salman Qaisar
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grammatoncleric wrote:
Zalman wrote:

Majority of Euro games don't have much direct player interaction of an attacking type.
Which means my group don't enjoy them.
So we are very glad that there are Eurogames like El Grande that do have it as a prominent feature.

I'm glad there are games that suit all players.
Regards, Sal


The most popular classic Euros all had attacking features in them; it wasn't until later development that indirect interaction came to be synonymous with the appellation "Euro."


I'm pretty new to the hobby, so my admittedly over-generalised statement was based on reading up and watching reviews of newer eurogames. My bad!

Could u please name some of these classic euros with attacking.
I'll happily look into them.
Cheers, Sal
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O.Shane Balloun
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BoJack Horseman wrote:
Tigris & Euphrates for starters

then if you want to go to the next level down for boardgames (ie not THE ONE)
https://boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/207521/euros-teeth
is probably a useful list to have a gander at.


That list is great! All my favorite Euros are on it.

Zalman, the ones that would have come to mind for me are Tigris & Euphrates, El Grande, Antike (and Antike II), Caylus, Hansa Teutonica, and Dominant Species. Technically, Hansa Teutonica and Dominant Species were both published well after Euros started trending to be "nicer" but they are in the vein of the older Euros.

Tigris & Euphrates is such that you can literally collapse another player's civilization with proper tile placement such that they cannot recover. El Grande only really works if the players are stabbing each other with tactical placement and flinging one another's cubes to provinces that do not help them at all.

Even though it is a classic Mac Gerdts rondel Euro, Antike rewards you for fighting with one another.

And if you could make Agricola nastier with direct interaction, it would turn into Caylus.

Edit above.

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O.Shane Balloun
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I will play as the Atreides, Bene Gesserit, Emperor, Fremen, Guild, or Harkonnen.
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I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
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Somehow my sentence about Antike got edited/deleted when I was cutting and pasting. Thank you! I am very familiar with El Grande and what I previously described before edits was not it!
 
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Jonathan Challis
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NowOrNever88 wrote:
I see. I wish it had hidden scoring like Small World does. Its not as tense when you know youre out of contention completely :/


Every group I've played Small World with knows everyone's scores to within a couple of coins, the same when I play the App.
 
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