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Yes, you WILL need multiple core sets if you want a full playset of every card. Don't know how many yet (probably three, but who knows?) - that's just the way LCGs are.

No, you WON'T need multiple copies of expansions to have full playsets.

Can we be done with this already?
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Teage Watson
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Re: Let's get this over with now...
But why won't FFG sell a top off pack with the cards I need from the core set! I am personally offended by the lack of this product.

Also storage!
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Robbie M.
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Re: Let's get this over with now...
I would have gladly paid $5 more if the core set came with all the cards I needed to play the game. So now they are only getting $40 of my money instead of $45. They are losing sales.
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Norm R

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Re: Let's get this over with now...
Do we know exactly what this means yet? Is it going to be that if I want to have a full set of every Phoenix card I'll have to buy multiple sets? Like I can play 3 of a card in a deck, but the set will only come with 1? If my buddy buys one set and I buy one set, can I gave him all the Mantis cards he needs and he gives me all the Phoenix cards I need or something to cut back on this? Or are there going to be neutral cards that work in every deck that we'll be unable to share? Also, is this relevant if you really only plan on playing 1 or 2 of the clans?

Somewhat new to LCGs in general, just really enjoy L5R and looking forward to this, so apologies if this is just common sense in the LCG world.
 
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Re: Let's get this over with now...
Haen wrote:
Do we know exactly what this means yet? Is it going to be that if I want to have a full set of every Phoenix card I'll have to buy multiple sets? Like I can play 3 of a card in a deck, but the set will only come with 1? If my buddy buys one set and I buy one set, can I gave him all the Mantis cards he needs and he gives me all the Phoenix cards I need or something to cut back on this? Or are there going to be neutral cards that work in every deck that we'll be unable to share? Also, is this relevant if you really only plan on playing 1 or 2 of the clans?

Somewhat new to LCGs in general, just really enjoy L5R and looking forward to this, so apologies if this is just common sense in the LCG world.


We don't yet know exactly how it will apply to L5R. In most competitive LCGs, you can play max 3 copies of a given card in a deck, and the core set won't come with 3 copies of everything. If you want to have three copies of Core Set cards it's highly likely you'll need to buy three Core Sets, but we won't know that for sure until much closer to release.

Also this ONLY applies to Core Sets - all expansion sets these days come with full playsets (FFG learned that lesson very early on).
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Marcel van der pol
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Re: Let's get this over with now...
CommissarFeesh wrote:
Haen wrote:
Do we know exactly what this means yet? Is it going to be that if I want to have a full set of every Phoenix card I'll have to buy multiple sets? Like I can play 3 of a card in a deck, but the set will only come with 1? If my buddy buys one set and I buy one set, can I gave him all the Mantis cards he needs and he gives me all the Phoenix cards I need or something to cut back on this? Or are there going to be neutral cards that work in every deck that we'll be unable to share? Also, is this relevant if you really only plan on playing 1 or 2 of the clans?

Somewhat new to LCGs in general, just really enjoy L5R and looking forward to this, so apologies if this is just common sense in the LCG world.


We don't yet know exactly how it will apply to L5R. In most competitive LCGs, you can play max 3 copies of a given card in a deck, and the core set won't come with 3 copies of everything. If you want to have three copies of Core Set cards it's highly likely you'll need to buy three Core Sets, but we won't know that for sure until much closer to release.

Also this ONLY applies to Core Sets - all expansion sets these days come with full playsets (FFG learned that lesson very early on).


And this kind of feedback might convince FFG to release core sets with a full play set of every card in it. Note that the original L5R card game had "unique" cards of which you were only allowed a single copy in your deck. It could be true for this game as well.
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Re: Let's get this over with now...
marcelvdpol wrote:
CommissarFeesh wrote:
Haen wrote:
Do we know exactly what this means yet? Is it going to be that if I want to have a full set of every Phoenix card I'll have to buy multiple sets? Like I can play 3 of a card in a deck, but the set will only come with 1? If my buddy buys one set and I buy one set, can I gave him all the Mantis cards he needs and he gives me all the Phoenix cards I need or something to cut back on this? Or are there going to be neutral cards that work in every deck that we'll be unable to share? Also, is this relevant if you really only plan on playing 1 or 2 of the clans?

Somewhat new to LCGs in general, just really enjoy L5R and looking forward to this, so apologies if this is just common sense in the LCG world.


We don't yet know exactly how it will apply to L5R. In most competitive LCGs, you can play max 3 copies of a given card in a deck, and the core set won't come with 3 copies of everything. If you want to have three copies of Core Set cards it's highly likely you'll need to buy three Core Sets, but we won't know that for sure until much closer to release.

Also this ONLY applies to Core Sets - all expansion sets these days come with full playsets (FFG learned that lesson very early on).


And this kind of feedback might convince FFG to release core sets with a full play set of every card in it. Note that the original L5R card game had "unique" cards of which you were only allowed a single copy in your deck. It could be true for this game as well.


Yes, if only people give them 8 years of this feedback instead of 7, surely they will completely alter their stance on it, despite publicly stating both that they wouldn't and the reasons for it!
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Re: Let's get this over with now...
Judging by past products I think we can expect a good 1 to 1/2 year of people constantly asking about this after release. Not only outrage of the practice of needing to buy multiple core sets, but then confusion on how many they will need.

I guess it's fun to speculate. I would assume this game will be like AGOT 2.0 and Conquest. 3x limit of each card for deck building and 1x of each faction card in the core. Therefore you'll probably want 3x core sets if you need full freedom and you can get by with 2x core sets if needed. 1x core set will show you the game, but give you an extremely limited deck building experience.

BTW that propose top off box (which they probably will never produce) would need to be more than $5 considering I'm sure they forecast their financials assuming die hard LCG players are buying multiple cores. Therefore the core would probably end of being 2x to 3x the cost and therefore would be an extremely poor entry point for a casual card player. Besides for competitive card game core sets like Conquest and AGOT 2.0 there was some useless card, but not many (factions IDs, extra neutrals etc). I really like their new core set composition compared to older games like Netrunner. There is much less waste and the player card pool is much more varied right out the gate. The downside is the single box experience is going to suffer because of it, but it gives you enough to get a feel for the game. AH The Card Game didn't have that luxury unfortunately because it was co-op and the scenarios take up about half the box. If any of FFG's games needed a "top off" box it would be that one, but if that was gonna hurt the game we would have seen it by now. Seems like it was extremely popular despite the core set distribution. So I doubt FFG will change their LCG model any time soon.
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Update: Assuming this page is accurate, only 2 core sets will be required for a full playset.
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CommissarFeesh wrote:
Update: Assuming this page is accurate, only 2 core sets will be required for a full playset.


Was not accurate. Three cores, as originally expected.
 
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CommissarFeesh wrote:
Yes, you WILL need multiple core sets if you want a full playset of every card. Don't know how many yet (probably three, but who knows?) - that's just the way LCGs are.

No, you WON'T need multiple copies of expansions to have full playsets.

Can we be done with this already?


I understand the sentiment. I really do. I've been seeing all these whine threads about the starter set issue for many many games now.

But honestly, I for one love the LCG model because I don't have to be buried knee-deep in duplicate cards. They know, THEY KNOW, that a lot of the fan base want a complete set of the base cards. They really should offer some sort of upgrade set that does not waste boxes, cards, and tokens. Knock off like 10 or 20 bucks from the cost of 3 sets and call it a day.

And every time they don't do that, I think we as consumers SHOULD raise hell and make a stink about it till they change the policy.
 
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You are certainly entitled to, but at the end of the day if the numbers don't work out they don't work out. FFG isn't going to leave money on the table, those extra pieces of cardboard cost them money and eat into the profit of a set, getting rid of them would increase power unit profit...but only if they can print them in a large enough quantity to get an economy of scale which increases their bottom line.

Also many players, both casual and competitive like to have more than a single deck, if there are neutral cards that you want the of in a deck you're going to need to buy multiples any way.

At the end of the day it comes down to this, either the game is good enough for competitive players to get into, despite the core set distribution, and the core set experience offers enough replayabilty to casual players without the need for serious deck building rules to get started, or it doesn't. If it does the game will grow. If it doesn't, we'll it won't.

If it doesn't work for you, don't buy it, after all not every game is for everyone and neither is every method of distribution...though if you played the CCG, I honestly do not understand the complaints.
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Carlos Saldanha
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Purgatus wrote:
I understand the sentiment. I really do. I've been seeing all these whine threads about the starter set issue for many many games now.

But honestly, I for one love the LCG model because I don't have to be buried knee-deep in duplicate cards. They know, THEY KNOW, that a lot of the fan base want a complete set of the base cards. They really should offer some sort of upgrade set that does not waste boxes, cards, and tokens. Knock off like 10 or 20 bucks from the cost of 3 sets and call it a day.

And every time they don't do that, I think we as consumers SHOULD raise hell and make a stink about it till they change the policy.


They, FFG, are not AEG.

AEG did a Deluxe Edition of Doomtown: Reloaded with full playset and neat components (a bit better than the original ones) for the price of 2 Core Sets. Full playsets could be achieved both ways, buying the Deluxe or 2 Core Sets. But the price was the same.

FFG on the other hand likes to bleed its buyers.
I've been a loyal AGOT1 player and buyer and FFG did what they did. I've swallowed it and got into AGOT2. After the first cycle of expansions I was through with it. FFG was bleeding the consumers, pushing the printing of important cards back and giving their consumers packs filled with fillers (unplayable cards) with one important card set.

So no. FFG won't change their business model when they have a ton of fanboys in line to spend dollars on recycled games as we have been seeing it happening in the past 3~4 years.

I really didn't want to say it but I have to say it, FFG represents the standards of the American way of consumption.
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Seth Dortch
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dormouse wrote:
You are certainly entitled to, but at the end of the day if the numbers don't work out they don't work out. FFG isn't going to leave money on the table, those extra pieces of cardboard cost them money and eat into the profit of a set, getting rid of them would increase power unit profit...but only if they can print them in a large enough quantity to get an economy of scale which increases their bottom line.

Also many players, both casual and competitive like to have more than a single deck, if there are neutral cards that you want the of in a deck you're going to need to buy multiples any way.

At the end of the day it comes down to this, either the game is good enough for competitive players to get into, despite the core set distribution, and the core set experience offers enough replayabilty to casual players without the need for serious deck building rules to get started, or it doesn't. If it does the game will grow. If it doesn't, we'll it won't.


I agree. I bought 3 core sets of Netrunner and even purchased additional cards because I ran multiple decks.
I get so sick of people whining about the amount of core sets they have to buy. They complain it's a waste of cards and tokens. Fair enough, but the CCG players do the same thing with that 78th copy of some random common card they get in a blind buy booster.
This argument is so old by this point. And pointless too honestly.
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[/q] I agree. I bought 3 core sets of Netrunner and even purchased additional cards because I ran multiple decks.
I get so sick of people whining about the amount of core sets they have to buy. They complain it's a waste of cards and tokens. Fair enough, but the CCG players do the same thing with that 78th copy of some random common card they get in a blind buy booster.
This argument is so old by this point. And pointless too honestly. [/q]

That is part of the problem. Those of us that saw through the CCG model and it's insanity in the first place, tend not to then turn around and, upon finding a product we would otherwise be interested in, compare it to said ridiculous, whale-requiring, pay-to-win system and say, "well, at least it ain't that!", when faced with another, more benign anti-consumer practice.

It is clear FFG is milking whales in their own way, and there is no debating it. And they appear to be getting worse. But, so long as MTG exists, players will go "hey, this ain't so bad!" or "golf costs more". Not a really great rationale, to my mind, but it's always there. Either way, yes yes, free markets and all that. But they are about to lose this customer through their (originally attractive) distribution model. Its starting to leave a bad taste in my mouth to support it after Arkham, with which I also have issues.

Also including a shout-out to what was mentioned above - on top of it, they really do just mix and match previous games to make the new ones. Not something terrible by itself, but it is all starting to seem a bit..scummy.
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Shanti Massey
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I feel like I'm in the middle of the "FFG knows best, just accept it" crowd and the "FFG are exploitive jerks" crowd. I don't think either of those things is true.

Yes. I'm aware that games like this need to ship a critical mass of product to be profitable. That in no way precludes a deluxe set, or deluxe upgrade being profitable as well. And if you still want more of the base cards, you can still buy more of the core sets.

I'm pretty confident that enough people would be interested in such a product that they could still turn an equivalent profit but in the end, it's just a guess. I want the company to make money so they can continue to make great games. I'm sure, not dissatisfied enough to boycott the product (I'm stoked about it) but the idea that I can either get it and be happy or not and not complain about anything seems a bit short sighted.

All I am responding to here is the idea that we as customers should just shut up and take it. If that were the correct approach, then we could all still be in CCG purgatory.

I want the company to prosper.

I want my own needs to be addressed.

And I'm trying to do it in a respectful way.
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Drew Dallas
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oDESGOSTO wrote:

AEG did a Deluxe Edition of Doomtown: Reloaded with full playset and neat components (a bit better than the original ones) for the price of 2 Core Sets. Full playsets could be achieved both ways, buying the Deluxe or 2 Core Sets. But the price was the same.


Pretty sure the Doomtown Deluxe edition retailed for $125 which is quite a bit more than what 2 normal doomtown core sets retail for ($40). Yeah you get the extra bling in the deluxe but if you were just looking for playsets it wasn't a good buy.
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Any way you slice it, getting a complete set for the price of 3 core sets is still cheaper than how it was on the CCG model, and as long as that remains a fact there will be nothing to change it.

I do agree that I would love if these companies gave you a "core upgrade" release with just the cards for a full set, but people need to understand that if you offer that at a price point that's lower than your cores, then suddenly you lose the sales of the core sets. Its as simple as that.

Correct on the Doomtown deluxe pricing there, buying two cores was cheaper than the deluxe set. Although maybe there was a release offer that we missed that made it more of a bargain.
 
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Best strategy if buying 1 set

Some of your cards are x3.
Some of your cards are x2.
The best cards will be x1.

Be happy. You can play the game. Keep paper notes in sleeves for those x3 neutral cards you want in every deck.

Best strategy if buying 2 sets

Some of your cards are x6.
Some of your cards are x4.
The best cards will be x2.

You will probably use all 6 of those multiple copies of some neutral cards (the ones that are "auto add" for any deck).

Sell one copy each of your x4 to someone on eBay or BGG.

Best strategy if buying 3 sets

Some of your cards are x9.
Some of your cards are x6.
The best cards will be x3.

Make a bed out of your spare x9 cards. Or decorate your boxes, build a tiny house, or make some 3d card art.

Either keep both sets of your x6s for multiple decks, or sell one copy of your x6s to four different people on eBay or BGG.

Laugh and fan your x3s like you are featured in a Blackmail card.
 
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Drew Dallas
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Foxtale wrote:
Best strategy if buying 1 set

Some of your cards are x3.
Some of your cards are x2.
The best cards will be x1.


To be fair to FFG and because alot of people seem to be looking at this with only netrunner as their LCG experience, the most recent LCG's have not had such a large 3/2/1 split. Game of Thrones and Arkham Horror were both packaged with 1x of each card with the exception of some neutral cards or economy cards which would come 2x or 4x. The vast majority of cards in each game were provided at 1x.
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Darksbane wrote:
Foxtale wrote:
Best strategy if buying 1 set

Some of your cards are x3.
Some of your cards are x2.
The best cards will be x1.


To be fair to FFG and because alot of people seem to be looking at this with only netrunner as their LCG experience, the most recent LCG's have not had such a large 3/2/1 split. Game of Thrones and Arkham Horror were both packaged with 1x of each card with the exception of some neutral cards or economy cards which would come 2x or 4x. The vast majority of cards in each game were provided at 1x.


Also Conquest came with 1x of each card in the core set with a few exceptions being 2x includes so that appears to be their new standard. That means less wasted cards each core set purchase and a larger starting player card pool, but it also means a less fun single core box experience. I prefer the new way because I was never considering buying less than a full play set for these games and this means less waste.
 
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Darksbane wrote:
Foxtale wrote:
Best strategy if buying 1 set

Some of your cards are x3.
Some of your cards are x2.
The best cards will be x1.


To be fair to FFG and because alot of people seem to be looking at this with only netrunner as their LCG experience, the most recent LCG's have not had such a large 3/2/1 split. Game of Thrones and Arkham Horror were both packaged with 1x of each card with the exception of some neutral cards or economy cards which would come 2x or 4x. The vast majority of cards in each game were provided at 1x.


Arkham Horror also had the advantage of maximum 2 copies of each type, while most of the others have allowed 3 copies. So you didn't need 3 copies of the core for consistency. (Though Netrunner players were certainly burned with 3x SanSan at the start.)

It's always the neutral cards that get you. In Conquest, it was wanting 3x Void Pirates in every deck. So you could still play with 1 core set, but your opponent wouldn't have 3x also. Or you could still build decks, but you had to leave some sleeves empty to transfer neutrals across.

Not a big deal, really. Just annoying.

That said, FFG does a good job of balancing their core sets around the opening game (shuffle faction + half of neutrals = deck). I'd rather 1 copy of 3 different cards that give deckbuilding options straight from the core set, than 3 copies of 1 card I don't particularly want.
 
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David Purkiss
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It's Fantasy Flight thing though really, was a bit worse with LoTR LCG as you had quest cards that were of no use as spares (then again you only needed 2 core sets).

Ulimately this game comes down to if you are OK with a £90-£100 buy in and around £90-£100 (1 deluxe and 6 expansions) a year depending on how much play you will get out of it.

It also depends if you're OK with getting filler you'll never use in the expansions (similar to the LoTR LCG where out of 60 cards there were around 1/3 that weren't worth looking at given the difficulty of the scenarios) as 1/3 of the cards you'll end up with likely sit in your folder looking nice as others work better.

That said FFG need to be a viable business and from a business point of view the approach makes sense (much like Imperial Assault - £7 for a small plastic model and a card for example), I don't particulary like it, but it is what it is.
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Purgatus wrote:
I'm pretty confident that enough people would be interested in such a product that they could still turn an equivalent profit but in the end, it's just a guess.


The difference is, FFG aren't just guessing. They have done the market research into this and the numbers don't fly. If it was as profitable or more to make these 'upgrade' or 'completion' sets, they'd already be doing it.
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CommissarFeesh wrote:
Purgatus wrote:
I'm pretty confident that enough people would be interested in such a product that they could still turn an equivalent profit but in the end, it's just a guess.


The difference is, FFG aren't just guessing. They have done the market research into this and the numbers don't fly. If it was as profitable or more to make these 'upgrade' or 'completion' sets, they'd already be doing it.


More to the point. There´s plenty of people like us that will keep buying the multiple cores. So as long as that's a reality, things aren't going to change. Blame us rather than FFG.
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