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Combat Commander: Europe» Forums » Rules

Subject: Op Fire + Hidden Mines sequencing. rss

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Robert B
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If a defender is going to hit a moving stack with both Hidden Mines and Op Fire, do the Hidden Mines have to be played first?

The rule book uses the same wording for both actions:

Hidden Mines may only be played by the scenario Defender just after one or more units Move or Advance (not Retreat) into a hex.

A Fire Action may only be played during an opponent’s Move Order, and only just after the expenditure of one or more MPs as a moving unit enters a new hex.

I've never seen anyone Fire first, but in some situations there could be an advantage to waiting to see how the Op Fire goes and then deciding about the Hidden Mines. Once a leader is broken or a poor quality unit breaks and has a lower morale on it's flipped side, the mines attack would have a greater chance of success.


On a related topic (and the reason I got thinking about this), in the Red Sector A scenario from the Leaders of Men Battle pack, American engineers eliminate Mines on a mines attack that doesn't roll doubles. If this occurs, can the German defender immediately play a Hidden Mines action to put more mines in the hex and make another attack against the engineers?

This scenario is coming up in the Combat Commander Vassal Tournament, so it's an important question ;-)

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David desJardins
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It seems to me you could do them in either order, based on the language you cite.
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Russ Williams
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Lefty Brune wrote:
If a defender is going to hit a moving stack with both Hidden Mines and Op Fire, do the Hidden Mines have to be played first?

Offhand I see no reason to think Hidden Mines must be first.

Quote:
The rule book uses the same wording for both actions:

Hidden Mines may only be played by the scenario Defender just after one or more units Move or Advance (not Retreat) into a hex.

A Fire Action may only be played during an opponent’s Move Order, and only just after the expenditure of one or more MPs as a moving unit enters a new hex.

FWIW I don't know, but I understand the "just after" to mean basically "before the attacker plays any reaction and before the attacker executes the next part of the order or starts a new order". I.e. just like you couldn't play the Hidden Mines alone (or Op Fire alone) on it in that hex after the unit continued to move into a later hex, or after the active player started a new order.
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Russ Williams
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Gunderian007 wrote:
If you want to place the Mines second, but kill all the movers first, it is illegal at that juncture because there is no target.

Is that true for sure? The card says "Place Mines in a hex into which a unit just Moved or Advanced". It doesn't say that the unit still has to exist...

If the unit moves into a hex and then immediately dies (for whatever reason: op fire, event, whatever), it seems to me that the hex is still nonetheless "a hex into which a unit just Moved"...

But I don't know. Is there some further discussion of this somewhere?
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Michael Olsen
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Gunderian007 wrote:
If you want to place the Mines second, but kill all the movers first, it is illegal at that juncture because there is no target


That is not true, there is a target: The hex. The hex has already qualified for the placement, and the removal of the units prior to the placement of the mine is irrelevant.

Unless it says something else in the rules?
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Brian
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Johnny hastily dug a foxhole, careful not to damage the sticky bomb detonator. The tank rumbled nearer. Fear of being crushed or spotted consumed him; yet seconds later, he deftly slapped the bomb onto a greasy gear and spun for cover, snap-firing...
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Gunderian007 wrote:
Mines set the Cover to '0' so the amount of Cover will suggest which should go first. Note that -1 Cover becomes 0 also.

Usually breaking a leader is doom for a mover under fire, so this will give you a big clue which way to go.
Good insightful strategy here, Paul.


Gunderian007 wrote:
If all things are equal, I would place the Mines last.

It is possible to trigger an Event which allows their removal.
Did you mean "... place the Mines" first? (because the OpFire attack might result in an Event which removes the Mines)? Another good insight.

 
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HEEREN Xavier
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no idea of the goo answer but i should say : you do in order you prefer/ you want ....

think if you want to stop ennemies moving ...

they move first in a open ground, you dont want "to spent" mines there because cover is already 0.. but you wan't to (opp) fire there.... you miss your fire, but you want to stop the movement , you place mines (or wires) after
... so, first opp fire next mines


other situation: ennemies are moving adjacent of you, you want to break almost possible - and why not kill someones- because you want to melee after ...

You ll play mines first, trying to break leader and after opp fire, to try to break/kill max units ...

no ?

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HEEREN Xavier
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Gunderian007 wrote:
cmoipap wrote:

other situation: ennemies are moving adjacent of you, you want to break almost possible - and why not kill someones- because you want to melee after ...


If my intention was to melee units that are moving adjacent, Mines might be a terrible idea... they affect everyone.

But Wire might be a great idea if they have more than one unit and I have one big unit! Remember, you can place the Wire as you Advance.


i love take risk !!! :meeple:
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Micheal Marks
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Rule O21.6's description box seems clear to me that you can choose any order you wish for your actions.
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