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Subject: A non-Trump-supporter explains Trump supporters rss

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Drew
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Once more unto the breach, dear friends . . .

How Half Of America Lost Its Fucking Mind

Some excerpts:
Quote:

"Nothing that happens outside the city matters!" they say at their cocktail parties, blissfully unaware of where their food is grown. Hey, remember when Hurricane Katrina hit New Orleans? Kind of weird that a big hurricane hundreds of miles across managed to snipe one specific city and avoid everything else. To watch the news (or the multiple movies and TV shows about it), you'd barely hear about how the storm utterly steamrolled rural Mississippi, killing 238 people and doing an astounding $125 billion in damage.

But who cares about those people, right? What's newsworthy about a bunch of toothless hillbillies crying over a flattened trailer? New Orleans is culturally important. It matters.

To those ignored, suffering people, Donald Trump is a brick chucked through the window of the elites. "Are you assholes listening now?"


Quote:
Basic, obvious truths that have gone unquestioned for thousands of years now get laughed at and shouted down -- the fact that hard work is better than dependence on government, that children do better with both parents in the picture, that peace is better than rioting, that a strict moral code is better than blithe hedonism, that humans tend to value things they've earned more than what they get for free, that not getting exploded by a bomb is better than getting exploded by a bomb.

Or as they say out in the country, "Don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining."

The foundation upon which America was undeniably built -- family, faith, and hard work -- had been deemed unfashionable and small-minded. Those snooty elites up in their ivory tower laughed as they kicked away that foundation, and then wrote 10,000-word thinkpieces blaming the builders for the ensuing collapse.


Quote:
Step outside of the city, and the suicide rate among young people fucking doubles. The recession pounded rural communities, but all the recovery went to the cities. The rate of new businesses opening in rural areas has utterly collapsed.

See, rural jobs used to be based around one big local business -- a factory, a coal mine, etc. When it dies, the town dies. Where I grew up, it was an oil refinery closing that did us in. I was raised in the hollowed-out shell of what the town had once been. The roof of our high school leaked when it rained. Cities can make up for the loss of manufacturing jobs with service jobs -- small towns cannot. That model doesn't work below a certain population density.

If you don't live in one of these small towns, you can't understand the hopelessness. The vast majority of possible careers involve moving to the city, and around every city is now a hundred-foot wall called "Cost of Living." Let's say you're a smart kid making $8 an hour at Walgreen's and aspire to greater things. Fine, get ready to move yourself and your new baby into a 700-square-foot apartment for $1,200 a month, and to then pay double what you're paying now for utilities, groceries, and babysitters.


Quote:
In a city, you can plausibly aspire to start a band, or become an actor, or get a medical degree. You can actually have dreams. In a small town, there may be no venues for performing arts aside from country music bars and churches. There may only be two doctors in town -- aspiring to that job means waiting for one of them to retire or die. You open the classifieds and all of the job listings will be for fast food or convenience stores. The "downtown" is just the corpses of mom and pop stores left shattered in Walmart's blast crater, the "suburbs" are trailer parks. There are parts of these towns that look post-apocalyptic.

I'm telling you, the hopelessness eats you alive.

And if you dare complain, some liberal elite will pull out their iPad and type up a rant about your racist white privilege. Already, someone has replied to this with a comment saying, "You should try living in a ghetto as a minority!" Exactly. To them, it seems like the plight of poor minorities is only used as a club to bat away white cries for help. Meanwhile, the rate of rural white suicides and overdoses skyrockets. Shit, at least politicians act like they care about the inner cities.

It really does feel like the worst of both worlds: all the ravages of poverty, but none of the sympathy. "Blacks burn police cars, and those liberal elites say it's not their fault because they're poor. My son gets jailed and fired over a baggie of meth, and those same elites make jokes about his missing teeth!" You're everyone's punching bag, one of society's last remaining safe comedy targets.


Quote:
These are people who come from a long line of folks who took pride in looking after themselves. Where I'm from, you weren't a real man unless you could repair a car, patch a roof, hunt your own meat, and defend your home from an intruder. It was a source of shame to be dependent on anyone -- especially the government. You mowed your own lawn and fixed your own pipes when they leaked, you hauled your own firewood in your own pickup truck. (Mine was a 1994 Ford Ranger! The current owner says it still runs!)

Not like those hipsters in their tiny apartments, or "those people" in their public housing projects, waiting for the landlord any time something breaks, knowing if things get too bad they can just pick up and move. When you don't own anything, it's all somebody else's problem. "They probably don't pay taxes, either! Just treating America itself as a subsidized apartment they can trash!"


Quote:
The rural folk with the Trump signs in their yards say their way of life is dying, and you smirk and say what they really mean is that blacks and gays are finally getting equal rights and they hate it. But I'm telling you, they say their way of life is dying because their way of life is dying. It's not their imagination. No movie about the future portrays it as being full of traditional families, hunters, and coal mines. Well, except for Hunger Games, and that was depicted as an apocalypse.


Quote:
Already some of you have gotten angry, feeling this gut-level revulsion at any attempt to excuse or even understand these people. After all, they're hardly people, right? Aren't they just a mass of ignorant, rageful, crude, cursing, spitting subhumans?


Quote:
It feels good to dismiss people, to mock them, to write them off as deplorables. But you might as well take time to try to understand them, because I'm telling you, they'll still be around long after Trump is gone.



And the unasked question of the headline: Which half?
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Robert Wesley
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"...in the Future, the President HAS too "B" an 'actor'! oh, and, it's your 'children', they're "misbehaving" WRONGAWRY!"
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Andy Beaton
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It's tragic, doubly so that they did it to themselves. The Republicans played them on the social issues, and they ended up voting for economic policies that gutted the small towns and enriched the rich even further.

The fact that they're supporting a New York property developer with, shall we say, questionable morality makes me think they're lining up to fleece themselves again.
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Greg Michealson
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So, Drew, are you a Trump supporter now?
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Pete Goch
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Nah, he's just a shit poster.

Oh, wait a sec...
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Matthew Schoell
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So the claim is that rural areas win all the misery poker? They didn't adapt, they didn't seek out education, they didn't take the personal responsibility to leave the depressed area, and that justifies bigotry and misogyny? The anger might be acceptable, they can still be held to account for their actions.
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David Hoffman
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I saw that yesterday. It's actually a good read, and insightful, but I suspect Drew's approaching it from a different angle than . . . well, everyone else.
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Based upon my poor understanding of history, science, and ethics...
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Sounds like they want hope and change.
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Corey Hopkins
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I agree, we should be doing more to keep a thriving middle class in the midst of a changing economy.

But that wasn't the point, was it?
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Rusty McFisticuffs
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I was going to say I consider Cracked a hell of a lot better of a source than The Federalist, but strangely this thing has the same air of victimhood as the rest of the stuff Drew links to.

Drew1365 wrote:
Quote:
Basic, obvious truths that have gone unquestioned for thousands of years now get laughed at and shouted down -- the fact that hard work is better than dependence on government, that children do better with both parents in the picture, that peace is better than rioting, that a strict moral code is better than blithe hedonism, that humans tend to value things they've earned more than what they get for free, that not getting exploded by a bomb is better than getting exploded by a bomb.

Uh huh. What I'm laughing at & shouting down is the idea that e.g. "hard work is better than dependence on government" now gets laughed at & shouted down, and I wouldn't trust whatever structure the author builds on this foundation of bullshit.
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Snoo Py
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I agree with a lot of things that Trump says, but saying the right thing is far from enough, as a leader, you need to be able to execute your plans. Well, it turns out that Trump has no real plans. And worst of all, he often does not answer to questions he is being asked, he often makes statements which can not be backed through analysis, in short he has an attitude that would make him unfit for pretty much any job, let alone a leadership position.
And still, there are close to 40% of the voters ready to back him.... This is what I find baffling. I understand that some folks are pretty desesperate and angry, but among all the leading countries in the world, we're currently the one doing the best, and by far, and doing much better than 8 years ago. So in these conditions, why would 40% of the population be desesperate?
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Drew1365 wrote:
To watch the news (or the multiple movies and TV shows about it), you'd barely hear about how the storm utterly steamrolled rural Mississippi, killing 238 people and doing an astounding $125 billion in damage.

But who cares about those people, right? What's newsworthy about a bunch of toothless hillbillies crying over a flattened trailer? New Orleans is culturally important. It matters.

Katrina caused 1500 deaths in New Orleans so that may have something to do with it.

Quote:
Basic, obvious truths that have gone unquestioned for thousands of years now get laughed at and shouted down -- the fact that hard work is better than dependence on government, that children do better with both parents in the picture, that peace is better than rioting...

Peace was unquestionably better than rioting for thousands of years... including the year of 1775?

Quote:
If you don't live in one of these small towns, you can't understand the hopelessness.

So maybe move then? What happened to the American Frontier Spirit?

Oh, I forgot: Trump voters don't appreciate people who want to improve their economic fortunes by leaving their homes.
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Les Marshall
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Drew1365 wrote:
Once more unto the breach, dear friends . . .

How Half Of America Lost Its Fucking Mind



Hmmm. Well at least this post shows you have the capacity for empathy which is part of the journey. So, the message resonates with you? Great. Now apply some additional reading and critical thinking.

The followers of Trump, while no more monolithic than the followers of Obama or Clinton, clearly have some deep resentment. The questions that must be asked are: What are the observed facts fueling that resentment? What are the causes of those facts? What does Trump truly offer by way of amelioration?

Trump attacks NAFTA and the proposed TPP. However, he offers no analysis about the nature of NAFTA or it's harm. He makes observations about manufacturing jobs gone overseas but, he utterly fails to account for jobs supporting Americas export industries and what would happen to them if the trade pacts collapsed. Price inflation has been flat for many years. What would happen if we were to engage in a trade war? Would revoking NAFTA have any impact on jobs lost through automation which continue to accelerate?

The last time this country engaged in massive trade protectionism was the 1970's. Do Trump supporters want to bring back double digit inflation and interest rates that we had before Reagan? Don't forget it was labor unions that uniformly fought NAFTA and the potential offshoring of jobs.

Rural communities suffer for many reasons. Big Ag has sucked up farms and dominated the distribution process for decades. It wasn't that long ago that the majority of the population completed it's shift from rural America to the cities as jobs shifted. Local merchants had their hearts torn out as custom first shifted to Big Box stores and then online retailing. Of course the rural communities would suffer as people left for the city breaking families and reducing resources. The political left resisted the dominance of Big Ag, Big Pharma and other corporate forms of domination for years and conservatives derided them as informed socialists with no sense for "business" realities.

Are poor minorities in cities actually regarded more highly than poor whites in the countryside? Thats a hard case to make given the higher rates of conviction and incarceration for people of color. However, I think you are playing into the hands of a more insidious force. The poor in the country and the poor in the city have far more in common than not. Everyone needs jobs that pay a living wage, to have a shot at a better life and some measure of respect. The political left are not the enemies of those goals despite the hyperbolic claims of some.

The simple truth is that you live in the single most powerful, most wealthy nation on the planet with the highest of living standards, even among the poor. Trump is riding the crest of a narrative that would have you believe the country is in dire straits when, in fact, it only needs some adjusting to level the playing field a little bit.
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R. Frazier
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I'm not really with the article. I agree that there are some trump voters who have actually been disenfranchised and are legitimately upset and legitimately want to find someone who will stand up for them and have latched onto the worst possible choice in pursuit of that goal because they are super duper stupid.

That said I think there are a whole ton more trump voters who actually have it just fine but feel like they're entitled to more and better and also who feel like they're entitled to be agreed with and catered to and not to ever feel stupid even though they are stupid.

I think many of those people feel that they're entitled to essentially never be challenged, never be uncomfortable, never be unhappy - and if they are, it must be a brown person's fault or an atheists' fault or a homosexual's fault or a Muslim's fault or a black president's fault or a liberal elite's fault.

Maybe life is just painful and difficult and we all have to go through it and we all have to deal with different opinions and different people and there's no getting around it.

Just because I don't agree with Christians doesn't mean I blame them every time a christian kills someone and demand they be ejected from the country. Just because I don't agree with republicans doesn't mean I demand they be silenced in order to bring back the "good old days" of my childhood before I knew any republicans.

Frankly, conservatives have been suckling at the teat of their own insular media for so long they think they are entitled to never deal with reality and the opinions of others and are now mad and combative about it. That's fine - they can have their own dumb ideas about how taxes should work and what laws we should have, but to claim that this arises out of genuine problems and grievances - really, not so much. It arises out of cunning talking to stupid and stupid taking cunning's word for it and getting all riled up.
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Mac Mcleod
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I think it's also a side effect of private schooling and home schooling.

Public schools (especially post integration) mixed people with different beliefs and annealed them into one people.

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kuhrusty wrote:
I was going to say I consider Cracked a hell of a lot better of a source than The Federalist, but strangely this thing has the same air of victimhood as the rest of the stuff Drew links to.

Drew1365 wrote:
Quote:
Basic, obvious truths that have gone unquestioned for thousands of years now get laughed at and shouted down -- the fact that hard work is better than dependence on government, that children do better with both parents in the picture, that peace is better than rioting, that a strict moral code is better than blithe hedonism, that humans tend to value things they've earned more than what they get for free, that not getting exploded by a bomb is better than getting exploded by a bomb.

Uh huh. What I'm laughing at & shouting down is the idea that e.g. "hard work is better than dependence on government" now gets laughed at & shouted down, and I wouldn't trust whatever structure the author builds on this foundation of bullshit.


Trump, the champion of the strict moral code! Destroyer of blithe hedonism!
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Trump supporters are divided in two halves. Those that are one issue voters-abortion is baby murder-that see Clinton as advancing baby murder and Trump as saving the babies through Court appointments.

And those that simply hate Hillary with a burning passion, because she's the candidate with the record that they can hate. They see Trump as this blank slate where no one really knows much about what he might do, but he loves America because he says so daily. And also they hate Hillary. They are also quite dumb people generally.
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Michael Carter
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maxo-texas wrote:
I think it's also a side effect of private schooling and home schooling.

Public schools (especially post integration) mixed people with different beliefs and annealed them into one people.



I think that's grasping at straws.
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Richard Keiser

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she2 wrote:
Trump supporters are divided in two halves. Those that are one issue voters-abortion is baby murder-that see Clinton as advancing baby murder and Trump as saving the babies through Court appointments.

And those that simply hate Hillary with a burning passion, because she's the candidate with the record that they can hate. They see Trump as this blank slate where no one really knows much about what he might do, but he loves America because he says so daily. And also they hate Hillary. They are also quite dumb people generally.


Don't forget the anarchists - or those with lives stuck in a ditch, nothing to lose, and just want to see everyone else burn.

Don't forget the Neo-Nazi's - a sub-group of the above, but with somewhat of a goal. Those that want to purge Muslims. Just substitute whatever race/religion after the Muslims are purged, because once that madness takes hold, it doesn't end until the purgers are killed off and silenced.
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Kelsey Rinella
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Koldfoot wrote:
Sounds like they want hope and change.


Right, but they think they should be able to have hope without change. Look at this part:

Quote:
But I'm telling you, they say their way of life is dying because their way of life is dying. It's not their imagination. No movie about the future portrays it as being full of traditional families, hunters, and coal mines.


Yeah, dumbass, everyone's way of life is dying, all the time! There's no hope that my grandchildren will be able to have the same job as my grandparents. The problem isn't that these people have no hope, it's that they've bought the lie that they should have had hope they'd be able to keep doing the same thing forever and now they feel entitled to that, and robbed of it.

I want to help rural communities. I support initiatives to use public funds to subsidize the extension of broadband, I think a public option would ease the awfulness of the health care costs which so often kick families when they're down, and I'm interested in learning what else government can do to help. But I don't feel they deserve to have the government tell them that they're special--that everyone else's way of life is up for grabs, but not theirs. I want to help because government should help the suffering and the vulnerable independent of whether they deserve it.
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Drew brings up a reasonable issue. Which we've discussed often before.

Kelsey's right: change is constant, even accelerating. Still.

For at least the last hundred years, almost no one in my extended family has tried to live their parents' lives. It just doesn't work. In the Great Depression, some of my family went back to farming, but they got back out because better opportunities--for their personal definition of better--were in the cities.

The article complains about lost manufacturing jobs, but those jobs weren't rural: they were city jobs.

Sure, back a hundred years we were 20% urban, but now we're 20% rural--and it's a pretty loose definition of rural.

Back probably a couple hundred years, we were over 98% farmers; now we're under 2% farmers--maybe under 1%.

(If you want exact numbers the Census and the Bureau of Labor Statistics have them, in spades.)

It's a free country. If you want, you can buy some land and go Amish. But posting on this site says you love your modern comforts too much. You think pickup trucks are made outside of cities? Not them, not their tires, not their fuel. And the highways you drive on require steel mills for signs, mines for the raw materials for the roads, huge factories to make the trucks that lay the asphalt, and on and on. And what pays for those roads are cityfolk and the trucks that go to and fro and between the cities.

I'm sure hunter-gatherers griped about the damn farmers taking the land where the best deer used to be found. And the damn elites in "civilization" were too busy making strange marks on clay tablets to do real work.

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Michael Carter
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Depends on your definition of city. There are and were small town factories where I grew up.
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Kelsey more or less nailed it, although the original article is bullshit to begin with.

Urbanites don't sit around mocking poor rural trash because we've got our own shit to deal with. And rural dwellers don't understand city life, despite Wong's assertion otherwise: even if they work in the city, they go in to their place of work and they go home at the end of the day and maybe, I dunno, they go to Subway for lunch or whatever and that's basically it, they don't live in the city, they don't know what it's like. My fiance's family are mostly rural farmers and I can tell you straight up they have no idea what urban life is like, and I can also tell you they think they know what it is and that they are mostly wrong.

Anyway, though, I'm sick to fucking death of this plague of articles which explains the poor aggrieved Trump voters, which typically and wrongly asserts that Trump voters are poor people - which they aren't. Trump voters are mostly reasonably well off - not rich, but middle-class to upper-middle class. Polling has demonstrated this time and time again.

Everybody else in America (and the rest of the first world for that matter) mostly faces the same economic pressures these people do, but they're not voting for Trump, because they've engaged with the world as it is. Trump voters are mostly voting for the world to be as it used to be - his slogan is "Make America Great Again" for a reason - because that's the only fucking solution they've got.

It doesn't matter that they live in one-industry towns where the one industry crapped out for economic reasons that really can't be avoided so long as you demand that capitalism be unfettered, because what they want is for the market to suddenly magically work for them again like it used to, and that's not going to fucking happen, but for twenty years they've had one party explicitly telling them "it can too happen, if no taxes," which is utter bullshit and always has been, and another party sadly unwilling to tell them bluntly "sorry, you're fucked, you have to change" and instead pretending that you can educate your way out of the problem, which just doesn't work. And they don't want government money anyway. They basically want to be paid to re-enact their own recent past.

And they're white, almost exclusively white, and any analysis of Trump voters that doesn't take this into account as a primary mover is a shit one. Trump voters are exclusively white because these people in these one-industry towns have been told for decades that the reason their shitty towns are failing is because all the money is going to the inner cities and being given away to blacks and Latinos and gays who waste it all on drug orgy parties and Congressional bribes, and because one party used them and fucked them over for decades and the other gave up on them years ago because if you can either be the party of stupid white people or the party of everybody else, everybody else is better more often than not.
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Walt
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They aren't stupid. They're just human.

They want what they know.

The world didn't change toward them, so why should they change toward the world?

It's not fair.

(Not that life is fair.)
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mlcarter815 wrote:
maxo-texas wrote:
I think it's also a side effect of private schooling and home schooling.

Public schools (especially post integration) mixed people with different beliefs and annealed them into one people.



I think that's grasping at straws.


I don't think so. It's just a logical outcome. They need to enforce some kind of racial and social integration on home schooling or we'll have non whites(who also homeschool) and whites (who homeschool even more) who basically never interact with people of other races prior to college (and in some cases not until after college). The same also applies to religions.

Let me put it in conservative "bugbear" terms so maybe you can see the point better.

Who's better for social unity? An islamic child raised in an extremist house, homeschooled and taught that others are less than animals or an islamic child who also spends 8 hours a day in public school with children of many races and religions?

And as I expected, there is plenty of evidence that exceeds the reach of what I was mentioning. Beyond simply being one people- it's people flat out teaching racism to their children and dehumanizing people of other races who are also u.s. citizens.

https://homeschoolersanonymous.org/2014/11/20/white-supremac...
Quote:
The biggest increase in intermarriage has occurred in recent years, due to the social interaction of children of different races in the school room and subsequently the board room and then bedroom. In the year 2000 – 9 percent of married men and women below age 30 were intermarried, compared with 7 percent of those ages 30 to 44, 5 percent for those ages 45 to 59, and about 3 percent among those age 60 and older. Obviously school busing, the promotion of interracial marriages by “Christian” preachers, visible images in all types of media, and 12 (plus) years of social conditioning in the schools for each and every child has had a devastating effect on the racial integrity of white America.


http://www.racismreview.com/blog/2008/07/20/homeschooling-ra...

Quote:

Levy writes:

“The fact that the majority of homeschooling families are White may be because of the increased racial integration of public schools.” (Levy, 2007:10).

He goes on to note that:

“Data about public school integration (since the 1954 Brown v. Board of Education decision) show that the level of school integration in most regions of the country reached its highest level in the 1980s. It is also the same decade that 29 of the 28 homeschooling laws were passed.” (Levy, 2007:10).

This is significant because, as Levy also points out, homeschooling has expanded by about 500% between 1990 and the year 2000, and it is predicting to continuing growing between 7% and 15% annually for the foreseeable future. While Homeschooling advocates, such as this one, tend to dismiss the effect that the desegregation of public schools played in the passage of new homeschool laws, my own lived experience suggests that Levy is on to something here with his research.
...
What strikes me about both Levy’s research and my own experience is the lengths to which white people will go to resist racial integration of education. And, there is no shortage of options – from all-white suburbs that effectively fund all-white school districts to the contemporary homeschooling movement – for white people who which to resist such political efforts at integration.


And worse is where white supremacists are specifically home schooling to instill racism in their children.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/leavingfundamentalism/2014/08/2...

http://web.archive.org/web/20131209040452/http://whitepridehomeschool.com/?page_id=39
Quote:
White Pride Homeschool
Raising Healthy Minded Children for a Bright Future



---

When MacArthur sought to remake japan- one of the first places he started was the schooling and textbooks of japanese schoolchildren.

If you raise white children who never encounter non-whites and feed them a diet of racism, the most likely result is that they will grow up racists who can't work and interact well with others.

This is healthy for the country



This is not



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