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Subject: Attack on FC unit initiating CA rss

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Yesterday I had the following situation (see the image). It's the Direct Fire Step, the T-80 has a Fire command and wants to attack the Full covered US squad in hex H8. The US player has to reveal his Command counter, because it's a Move command (see other thread; it is a clarification to 6.5.4.2.2 on p.30 that he has to reveal the counter). Because the squad is in Full Cover, the only kind of movement he can do is Crawling. Normally that means the -2 GP Defense factor for moving will not be applied, but the +10 GP Fire mod for Leg Crawling. Anyway the US player doesn't want to move or crawl at all, he wants to Close Assault the T-80 during the following Movement Phase.

So I don't know, ...

... will the GP Defense factor -2 for moving be applied?
or
will the GP Fire mod +10 for Leg crawling be applied?
or
will no of the two be applied?


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Jim Day
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I need to make a real clarification. Section 6.5.4.2.2 was not clarified nor did it require a clarification. It clearly states that leg and towed units' GP Defense Factor are based on whether or not it is in Full Cover or whether or not it is moving. That's it, nothing more. You can't state that a leg unit is not moving and later reveal that it is. This has nothing to do with vehicles and makes no statement that it does.

There is nothing in the rules that states that when crawling that there are situations when its conditions are not applied. I keep coming back to the same statement over and over again -- if it's not stated in the rules it doesn't apply.

Please don't apply concepts from other games or feel the need to make interpretations to the rules that aren't necessary.

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I still don't know what to do in this situation. The question is how the attack will be modified if the target has a Move command, but wants to Close Assault and not to move or crawl.
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Jim Day
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Last time ...

AGAIN, this is all covered in the rules.

Full cover leg units may initiate Close Assault and Hand-to-Hand combats against adjacent units (6.1.4.2 Full Cover).

To Close Assault, dismounted leg units must have a Move command (6.6.1.1 Close Assault Combat).

All GP Direct and Indirect Fires apply a +10 modifier (6.6.4.3 Crawling).

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Nolan Hudgens
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So the Crawling GP mod applies only where the target is Crawling as its move for the phase. (Crawling doesn't trigger OW since it isn't Movement, 6.6.4.3.) It isn't possible for a unit to both Crawl and Close Assault/ HtH a hex adjacent to the hex entered by crawling. (assuming crawl takes the place of other Move actions)
 
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Jason Smith
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Nhudge wrote:
It isn't possible for a unit to both Crawl and Close Assault/ HtH a hex adjacent to the hex entered by crawling. (assuming crawl takes the place of other Move actions)


Right. If the infantry unit actually changed hexes by crawling to get adjacent to the T-80, then close assault would not be allowed.

In this situation, the infantry unit started adjacent to the T-80. So even though for the purposes of modifying GP fire (+ 10), the unit is crawling, it can still close assault.
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Nolan Hudgens
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Pleaase forgive a question from a noob, but where do the rules say that a unit in FC that conducts a close assault is treated as Crawling? Is it based on the Move command needed for the close assault? Since fire would occur in the Fire Phase(s) the actual Close Assault wouldn't yet be occurring. (CA doesn't trigger Overwatch unless it's coupled with an Advance)
 
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Kev.
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Do people come up with these questions just to raise the blood pressure of the designer? ninja
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Nolan Hudgens
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Hey Kev-

I asked because I actually didn't understand. (NOOB) The idea that Close Assault is treated as Crawling doesn't appear anywhere that I can find it.

Unless we're working from implication as follows:
A unit in FC can move only by crawling (itself only implied by the "one hex" language in 6.6.4.3); THUS a FC unit with a Move command could move only by Crawling; THUS the effect of the Move command is to treat the unit as having a command to Crawl: THUS fire at this unit [the Combat Phase occurring before the actual Close Assault] with the Move command would use the Crawl GP modifier, and NOT the Move modifier.

Or something like that.

The trouble is that the designer says plainly that the rules say _only_ what they say, so that implication isn't really part of them.

Apologies for the irascible tone.arrrh
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I agree completely, Nolan. I ask all these questions, because the rules are not that clear to me. I think contrary to what the designer says the rules do not describe all the situations of the game. The "clarification" I talked about in the first post for example is, that nowhere the rules state that the player of the target of a GP attack must reveal its Command counter, if it is a Move command. I don't want to make trouble here and I don't think that the game is a bad one. It is amazing that the designer answers all these questions.
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Nolan Hudgens
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My understanding of the need to reveal a Move command is that the defender doesn't get the benefit of it unless it _is_ revealed. Target's choice, though with consequences.

And I think the logical answer to your initial question is that the Move command means the target is _both_ in FC and Moving, so that it uses the GP defense strength adjustments and NOT Crawl.

I'm having trouble conceptualizing any situation where the Crawl modifier would apply, according to the literal rules. Crawling [which, btw, seems to be the exclusive province of units in FC] occurs _during_ a Movement Phase, and can't trigger overwatch. Thus it couldn't apply during a Combat Phase unless some rule provides for that.

Apologies, as before, for the edgy tone.arrrh
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Kris Miller
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Nolan,

I think you have a good point. When a leg unit in Full Cover "Crawls" 1 hex to maintain its Full Cover, it cannot be shot at by Overwatch.

Now, if Crawling was defined as "a leg unit in Full Cover with a Move Command", that would greatly simplify all of this. However, there is no definition of Crawling other than the 1 hex move while maintaining Full Cover. That happens in the Movement Phase and does not count as movement for spotting or combat. So I agree that Overwatch fire would not happen.

Kris
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To have to reveal the Move command marker of a target when it is attacked during the Combad Phase was "clarified" in another thread. It is not to get a benefit for the target. It has to be done because of a disadvantage: the target suffers a GP Defense factor -2 if it is not in Full Cover or it suffers a GP Fire modificator +10 if it is in Full Cover. It doesn't matter whether the target wants to do a Close Assault or a Hand-to-Hand combat later. So in the situation above the target suffers the GP Fire modificator +10.

It was "clarified" in another thread too that Crawling although it does not count as moving for spotting purposes and no Spot/Move counter will be placed triggers Overwatch Fire. Of course in the situation above it is no OW Fire, it is a normal attack during the Direct Fire step.

CC or H-t-H does not trigger OW Fire anyway.

Crawling is allowed to a unit whether it is in FC or not.

For me everything is fine now and I understand how it should work.
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Nolan Hudgens
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I'm inclined not to play or want a game that uses secret rules. yuk

What would really help a noob like me learn the rules (much, much more than "programmed instruction" structure, which makes the rulebooks nearly unusable for research during play) is for someone to compile these rulings in one place so they'd be accessible. Those other threads could be here on BGG, or in BGG under the Panzer game, or in Panzer Pusher, or Consimworld. And there are probably other places of which i'm ignorant. ASL has those "Perry sez" lists, and other systems have less involved compilations.

For the particular question that began this thread, a ruling going something like "a unit in FC with a Move Command is treated as Crawling, not moving, for GP fire" would do nicely to convey what it seems the designer means by even bringing up Crawling. It would fit well in the Crawling rule, 6.6.4.3, which has no such provision in print.

And while i'm thinking about FC, I'm assuming there's yet another ruling that says that a unit in FC can move no farther than one hex until it removes the marker in the next Adj Phase. (alternatively it would lose the marker if it moves >1 hex?)
 
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Kev.
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ok..ok. Sorry for the dick comment. I was just trying to understand how you got this point?
Sometimes rules books lead us in circles.
I've never had this experience with Pzr/MBT. But I could see how it may happen.
when things like that do occur I put my common sense hat on and move on. Seems to be a rash of micro detail questions floating across a lot of games I play lately. Wich there was an easy way to make it easier for folks to 'breakthru' and let the game click for them.
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Jim Day
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Sorry in advance for the long post.

This is pretty much it for me as it relates to questions from certain individuals. No matter what I say, including the actual rules references, these individuals continue on with their own rule interpretations including all the snarky and flip comments.

With that in mind, going forward, I'll be happy to address reasonable and measured questions concerning the game. I have never taken this position in the past, but I have never experienced this before. Now, I understand that that will probably get the game 1s or 2s as ratings, but so be it. It's far better than this frustration. I now understand why some designers don't answer questions.

I will attempt to dispel some final misinterpretations:

To have to reveal the Move command marker of a target when it is attacked during the Combat Phase was "clarified" in another thread.
No it wasn't "clarified." Section 6.5.4.2.2 Leg and Towed GP Defense Factors clearly states that leg and towed GP Defense is based on the terrain occupied, full cover status, and whether or not they are moving. Does this somehow state that it's optional to revel where or not the unit is moving?

It was "clarified" in another thread too that Crawling although it does not count as moving for spotting purposes and no Spot/Move counter will be placed triggers Overwatch Fire.
No it wasn't "clarified." Section 6.6.4.3 Crawling clearly states that crawling is not considered moving for combat or spotting purposes. How could that trigger Overwatch Fire?

CC or H-t-H does not trigger OW Fire anyway.
Of course it does. Where is the rule reference for this? Both sections 6.6.1.1 Close Assault Combat and 6.6.1.2 Hand-to-Hand Combat clearly state that it may trigger Overwatch Fire.

Crawling is allowed to a unit whether it is in FC or not.
No it isn't. Where is the rule reference for this? Section 6.6.4.3 Crawling clearly states Full Cover units.

MBT "programmed instruction" structure
You must be thinking about some other game. MBT doesn't utilize programmed instruction in the rule books.

I'm assuming there's yet another ruling that says that a unit in FC can move no farther than one hex until it removes the marker in the next Adj Phase. (alternatively it would lose the marker if it moves >1 hex?)
There wasn't any "ruling." This is clearly stated in the rules (section Section 6.6.4.3 Crawling). There is no rule that movement removes Full Cover. If there is, please provide the rule reference.

It clearly isn't a "clarification" or "ruling" when rule sections are quoted (again and again).

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mongoose27 wrote:
It was "clarified" in another thread too that Crawling although it does not count as moving for spotting purposes and no Spot/Move counter will be placed triggers Overwatch Fire.
No it wasn't "clarified." Section 6.6.4.3 Crawling clearly states that crawling is not considered moving for combat or spotting purposes. How could that trigger Overwatch Fire?

In the following thread Fernando said that OW Fire will be triggered by crawling. If Fernando's answer was wrong, why You didn't correct it?
https://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1647530/6643-crawling

mongoose27 wrote:
CC or H-t-H does not trigger OW Fire anyway.
Of course it does. Where is the rule reference for this? Both sections 6.6.1.1 Close Assault Combat and 6.6.1.2 Hand-to-Hand Combat clearly state that it may trigger Overwatch Fire.

See 6.6.1.1 Close Assault Combat on p. 36: "While Close Assaults take place during the Movement Phase, they do not trigger Overwatch Fire unless the attacking unit is executing an Advancing Attack. In that case, the Overwatch Fire is resolved before the Close Assault."


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Nolan Hudgens
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No matter what I say, including the actual rules references, these individuals continue on with their own rule interpretations including all the snarky and flip comments.

I assure you that it wasn't my intent to offend or make snarky comments.

I actually am a noob who wants to understand your game. It occurs to me to wonder whether you're using the same rulebooks of which I have print and pdf copies. For example, the print version of 6.6.4.3 has nothing that really requires the FC unit to move _only_ by crawling. Likewise there's nothing there or in the other 2 rules you cite early in this thread (for CCombt and FC) that indicates that units in FC that have Move commands are treated as Crawling when fired on. (I get the sense from this discussion that crawling and CC/ HTH are the only things a Move marked unit in FC can do besides hold still.) As the designer, you easily could have marked- up rules that might differ from the production version.

Apologies for being a little slow to grok the system.

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mongoose27 wrote:

It clearly isn't a "clarification" or "ruling" when rule sections are quoted (again and again).



I wish you _had_ actually quoted from the rules, giving the applicable passages. Instead you only cited to the rule numbers. Here's what 6.6.4.3 actually says (entire section, from the print and pdf version, 2016):

6.6.4.3 Crawling
Unsuppressed squads, half-squads and sections (w/o attached weapons)
in Full Cover (see 6.1.4.2) may move 1 hex while maintaining
their Full Cover status.
Crawling units cannot:
• Have Short Halt commands
• Change elevation
• Move adjacent to an opposing unit spotted by any friendly unit
• Move up or down in a building
Crawling is not considered moving for combat or spotting purposes.
Units are not marked with a Spot/Move counter. However, all GP
Direct and Indirect Fires apply a +10 modifier.


That doesn't include any indication that crawling is the only type of movement allowed to units in FC. What it has is _permission_ and not mandate. ["may"]

It also doesn't indicate that crawling treatment applies in any context other than when the unit actually crawls to enter a hex. It would be very easy to add something to specify in what contexts the treatment applies. (such as that given in this thread's primary question, i.e. when the unit is fired upon during a Combat Phase, before it moves)

If the rule's text contradicts my statements here, please explain which passages do so. If there are such passages in some other rules, please do quote the controlling language.
 
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Jim thanks for all the hard work here and on the game system.
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hipshot wrote:
Jim thanks for all the hard work here and on the game system.


I add my thanks too. I only wish the designer would realize that things which seem perfectly obvious to someone who's spent a lot of time with the system might not seem so to those who are newly introduced.

I had a lot of fun with the Yaquinto series, and fully expect this one to be even better.
 
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Jason Smith
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Nhudge wrote:
mongoose27 wrote:

It clearly isn't a "clarification" or "ruling" when rule sections are quoted (again and again).



I wish you _had_ actually quoted from the rules, giving the applicable passages. Instead you only cited to the rule numbers. Here's what 6.6.4.3 actually says (entire section, from the print and pdf version, 2016):

6.6.4.3 Crawling
Unsuppressed squads, half-squads and sections (w/o attached weapons)
in Full Cover (see 6.1.4.2) may move 1 hex while maintaining
their Full Cover status.
Crawling units cannot:
• Have Short Halt commands
• Change elevation
• Move adjacent to an opposing unit spotted by any friendly unit
• Move up or down in a building
Crawling is not considered moving for combat or spotting purposes.
Units are not marked with a Spot/Move counter. However, all GP
Direct and Indirect Fires apply a +10 modifier.


That doesn't include any indication that crawling is the only type of movement allowed to units in FC. What it has is _permission_ and not mandate. ["may"]


To me the "may" indicates that a unit in Full Cover can choose to move or stay where they are in Full Cover, although perhaps the rules could have been written as follows for extra clarity.

6.6.4.3 Crawling
Unsuppressed squads, half-squads and sections (w/o attached weapons)
in Full Cover (see 6.1.4.2) may are allowed to move 1 hex while still maintaining
their Full Cover status. This is called crawling.

The words in bold type are mine.

Nhudge wrote:

It also doesn't indicate that crawling treatment applies in any context other than when the unit actually crawls to enter a hex. It would be very easy to add something to specify in what contexts the treatment applies. (such as that given in this thread's primary question, i.e. when the unit is fired upon during a Combat Phase, before it moves)


Another way to examine this issue is to consider the case where a infantry unit with a Move command starts the movement phase adjacent to the T-80 but is not in Full Cover. The rules say that OW fire cannot be conducted against the infantry unit, but it says nothing about direct fire. So the T-80 can execute direct fire at the infantry unit during Direct Fire phase. Since it has a Move command, should the - 2 GP defense apply when the T-80 executes direct fire against the infantry unit? If it doesn't, that would imply that there is no advantage to sitting tight in the hex as opposed to preparing for a Close Assault. Moreover, since each hex is 100 meters, an infantry unit in an adjacent hex would need to do some sort of moving to execute a close assault. This issue is somewhat addressed in the basic rules on page 17.

Quote:
...there are certain actions that are covered in the Advanced Game rules, that require movement without actually exiting a hex.


So given just those three considerations, yes, the - 2 GP modifier applies. So, if the -2 modifier applies for the case when an infantry unit, not in Full Cover, with a Move command starts adjacent to the T-80, it stands to reason that the +10 GP modifier applies to infantry in Full Cover with a Move command adjacent to the T=80. The infantry unit is moving without leaving the hex. What is that movement called when it is in Full Cover? Crawling.

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Nolan Hudgens
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Jason-

Many thanks for explaining this. I suspect the place for any needed clarification would be in the Full Cover rule (6.1.4.2) instead of under Crawling. Adding something like this:

""A unit in FC can move only by Crawling (6.6.4.3), and a FC unit with a Move command is treated as crawling whenever it receives fire.""

That would take care of the potential suggestion in 6.6.4.3 that the unit might somehow move more than one hex but lose the FC marker.

Would it be accurate to say that the squad in the initial question would apply the FC GP modifier (+2 to its defense value) AND the Crawling DRM of +10? (6.6.4.3 allows the crawling unit to remain FC)

Again many thanks
 
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Nhudge wrote:
I suspect the place for any needed clarification would be in the Full Cover rule (6.1.4.2) instead of under Crawling. Adding something like this:

""A unit in FC can move only by Crawling (6.6.4.3), and a FC unit with a Move command is treated as crawling whenever it receives fire.""


That works too. It comes down to rule placement. The way the rulebook is organized, it's often necessary to reference several rule sections from different pages to gain a cohesive picture of one issue. I don't know if it's possible to reorganize the rules to avoid this. I've read plenty of rulebooks from other games requiring the same approach to learn.


Nhudge wrote:

That would take care of the potential suggestion in 6.6.4.3 that the unit might somehow move more than one hex but lose the FC marker.


Keep in mind that a unit can only change FC status during the adjust phase. See page 13.
Quote:
Leg and towed units may freely enter into or move out of Full Cover, regardless of their orders, during the Adjust Full Cover Step of the Adjustment Phase (see 6.8.3).


So it's not as if a unit can choose to come out of FC during the Move Phase in order to move. That's why I wrote "a unit is allowed to move while still maintaining Full Cover status."

Nhudge wrote:

Would it be accurate to say that the squad in the initial question would apply the FC GP modifier (+2 to its defense value) AND the Crawling DRM of +10? (6.6.4.3 allows the crawling unit to remain FC)


If the unit was not in Full Cover, its GP defense value would be reduced by 2 for the purposes of resolving direct fire. In medium cover, the GP defense value is 6S. That value is reduced to 4S because it has a Move command. So you would read across the 4th row of the GP Fire table when determining fire results. Since it is not crawling, the +10 modifier is not applied to the die roll.



If the unit is in medium cover and in Full Cover, its GP defense is 8S (Edit: a base 6S for the medium cover and +2 for Full Cover). The 2 is not subtracted from the unit's GP defense because as stated in 6.6.4.3.
Quote:
crawling is not considered moving for combat or spotting purposes.

So row 8 is referenced on the GP fire table. However, 10 is added to the attacker's GP die roll because the unit is crawling, as opposed to just sitting there.
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Jayman66 wrote:
If the unit is in medium cover and in Full Cover, its GP defense is 6S. The 2 is not subtracted from the unit's GP defense because as stated in 6.6.4.3.

In addition the GP Defense of 6S will increased by 2 to 8S, because the target is in FC. Furthermore the attacker gets the +10 GP Fire mod on his die roll (Attack vs. Leg Crawling unit).
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