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Subject: Giving advice to others when its not your turn rss

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Jonathan Warren
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It's understandable that when introducing new players to a game to take some time to explain why certain moves might be undesirable and how they might benefit others, but once the new players have found their feet to let them make their own decisions; I don't mind this.

I also don't mind a bit of 'take that' in my games or being on the receiving end of a 'take that' move, but how do you feel about a player that has to tell everyone else what your plans are in an attempt not to get screwed over themselves or just to screw you over, or a player that constantly tries to manipulate other players on their turns in an attempt to get an advantage.

My feelings are, just let others play the game how they want to play and stop trying to give what my plans may or not be to others. If you know my plans, that's fine for you to screw me over on your go, but don't try and get the other players to do your dirty work as well.

This might or might not be something that is becoming irritating at a game group I might or might not be playing with. It might also be me just wondering on a hypothetical situation, but I'd be interested in others thoughts.
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Boaty McBoatface
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its a tactic, like rolling dice or moving your piece.

Indeed in some games it is practically a rule.
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Rusty McFisticuffs
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JoffW wrote:
If you know my plans, that's fine for you to screw me over on your go, but don't try and get the other players to do your dirty work as well.

Well... in games like Neue Heimat and Chicago Express, getting the other players to do your dirty work is the game.
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K A
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I strongly dislike it and usually the games where doing it is seen as a key part of play. I tend to gravitate towards games that eliminate or minimize this. I would much rather have the table talk be jokes, trash talking, and general discussions on various topics than a constant 'you should move there to do this against them'.

I want to come up with a great move, not told about the great move...even from a teammate.

I want to make the move without other players begging or making spurious arguments and then my taking a side... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17ocaZb-bGg
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J J
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This is just another of the things you need to sort out before you get into the game. Make it clear that it's not your thing and will spoil the game for you. And then if someone starts it, ask them to stop, because as you said you don't want that sort of game. Be prepared to walk.
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Jonathan Warren
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I just want to point out that I myself do not like scuppering plans of others and will not let on if I know that Dave desperately wants a certain card on his turn (I let others figure this out). However, Dave wants everyone to know what card I'm trying to buy and will be vocal about it to other players... he does forget to tell others which card he's wanting though.

I do hope that when I get to play the new edition of Escape from Colditz, and Dave and I are both playing the Escape Officers, that Dave does not decide to point out to the German player where I am planning to make my escape from, and then use that advantage to escape himself! If there even is a Dave that is

slatersteven wrote:
Indeed in some games it is practically a rule.

And, just to be clear, I'm talking about games that do not purposely have this as a mechanic or expected as an unwritten rule.
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dave bcs
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slatersteven wrote:
its a tactic, like rolling dice or moving your piece.

Indeed in some games it is practically a rule.


I agree with this. Imagine Diplomacy or Risk or even Kemet without such talk: boring,

When my group plays euros it is more friendly, so there tends to be no self-serving attempts to manipulate others with talk. This seems to fit the spirit of less aggressive euro games better. No one should want to win so badly as to seemingly go outside the unspoken, agreed upon (by your game group) intended spirit of the rules in order to do so. For example, I don't think anyone would approve of flicking the lights off and on and blowing an air horn during an opponent's turn, while this may not be explicitly forbidden in the rules.

What I WILL do during a euro, especially when a game is new to some one, is remind them of a rule that might help them against me, or warn them as to what I am about to do.
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Wouter
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Direct conflict games with more than 2 players are all about making another player a better target than yourself. I'm always harmless and somebody else is the biggest threat devil
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Greg Gresik
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For me (as some have posted - although I am surprised at the number of people who fall on the other side), I generally dislike the practice.

Now, it does depend on the game, to be sure. Certain games, such "tactics" are part and parcel - and even thematically appropriate (games like Eclipse or Tiny Epic Kingdoms) for example. But in Euro-style games like Puerto Rico, Stone Age, or Age of Empires III: The Age of Discovery, for example, I take issue with it.

Another factor would be who is doing the "persuading". If we are playing as a family, and the 11 year old is trying to get me to not do something that would hinder him - no problem (in fact I'd be disappointed if he didn't try - it shows he understands what's going on or what I may or may not do) - but if his brother who is 9 years older than he, is trying to coerce the younger sibling into a move, again, I take issue. This would go for any situation where someone who is "better" or more experienced is trying to encourage/discourage a course of action by a "lesser" player.

I would prefer that each player play their own game. A 3 or 4 player game should not be decided by 1 player manipulating 2 or 3 other players. If I wanted to do that, I'd simply play 2 player against the "manipulator".

 
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Ryan Malmberg
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Edit to clarify heavy focus on recent play -- as I think back; however, we all have gone through at least one different game which resulted in one of us getting hard AP. The more I think back to historical plays, the more I believe theme and our personalities is what gets us to [i[think outside of the box[/i[ and get around AP at different times.

drdranetz wrote:
When my group plays euros it is more friendly, [...]

We have one guy who tends to AP hard, and another that will now and then; we let them walk through their turn and waffle back and forth for a few minutes. Usually you see them hit the "eyes glazed over" moment after 10 minutes and that is when another will step and and walk through their recommended steps with "go here to trigger X because you have Y which will get you ABC bonus and next turn you can look at doing location action M." They see the math behind the move and the benefit that they receive, and get them back on track.

It usually only happens:
- once a Euro game
- usually toward the end when the final score number crunching turns begin and you do not want to miss out on a single point
- less common on games we've played more frequently

For our guys, it seems to go over well and works well [unless they secretly hate it]--it keeps the game moving, they had ample time to work it out and sort of hit the deer-in-headlights moment and required an outside perspective.
 
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Rusty McFisticuffs
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malmby wrote:
For our guys, it seems to go over well and works well [unless they secretly hate it]

If they do hate it, they should play faster. What do they expect the other players to do during that time--sit quietly doing nothing? Play another game?
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dave bcs
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kuhrusty wrote:
malmby wrote:
For our guys, it seems to go over well and works well [unless they secretly hate it]

If they do hate it, they should play faster. What do they expect the other players to do during that time--sit quietly doing nothing? Play another game?


This raises a good point: Play to win, yes, but isn't the whole point everyone having fun? Is the AP player's need to maximize odds of victory so essential to his own fun that he must force others to sit in boredom for long stretches of time? Likewise with the amount of interplayer manipulation, game play is most fun when the participants are attentive to each other's tastes and sensitivities.
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Chapel
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I for one like to play games that table talk and negotiation is encouraged. Not all games are that. Which is why I gravitate to multi-player conflict games.
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Stephen Williams
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I've never been particularly bothered when other players do this sort of thing to me. Of course, I also don't play with anyone who does this sort of thing on a regular basis, so maybe I'd feel differently if I had to face it all the time.

When it does happen, for me, it becomes sort of a game within the game - to try and mislead that player into believing I'm doing one thing when I'm really doing another. Success, of course, is gauged by how vocally he supports the incorrect theory I'm trying to present.

I'd like to think I'm pretty good at rolling with the punches, so if someone blabbing my strategy to the table actually prevents me from achieving my goals, I just change my goals accordingly.
 
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Richard Keiser

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Like in real life, a game does sometime involve convincing someone else to take an action that benefits you, perhaps at the expense of another.
 
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Boaty McBoatface
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JoffW wrote:
I just want to point out that I myself do not like scuppering plans of others and will not let on if I know that Dave desperately wants a certain card on his turn (I let others figure this out). However, Dave wants everyone to know what card I'm trying to buy and will be vocal about it to other players... he does forget to tell others which card he's wanting though.

I do hope that when I get to play the new edition of Escape from Colditz, and Dave and I are both playing the Escape Officers, that Dave does not decide to point out to the German player where I am planning to make my escape from, and then use that advantage to escape himself! If there even is a Dave that is ;)

slatersteven wrote:
Indeed in some games it is practically a rule.

And, just to be clear, I'm talking about games that do not purposely have this as a mechanic or expected as an unwritten rule.
Such as?

I cannot think of any game were player conflict is not a feature of the game where this is not appropriate. I can certainly see (such as in a two player wargame) where it can be seen as a pretty gamesmanship like tactic, but not where it is not valid.

After all such "tactics" may be unconscious, s shake of the head, a sharp intact of breath Ect. All this is is a more open form of subtle psychological manipulation.

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Michael McKibbin
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If one or more of the players is less experienced than the others, then this could be problematic. However, if all of the players are experienced, then I have no problem whatsoever with this kind of table talk. Experienced players should all know which moves are in their own best interest, and recognize that all table talk suggesting a particular course of action is to the ultimate benefit of the suggesting party. They are then free to weigh their own self-interest against the suggested move and act accordingly.
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Michael McKibbin
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drdranetz wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
its a tactic, like rolling dice or moving your piece.

Indeed in some games it is practically a rule.


I agree with this. Imagine Diplomacy or Risk or even Kemet without such talk: boring,

When my group plays euros it is more friendly, so there tends to be no self-serving attempts to manipulate others with talk. This seems to fit the spirit of less aggressive euro games better. No one should want to win so badly as to seemingly go outside the unspoken, agreed upon (by your game group) intended spirit of the rules in order to do so. For example, I don't think anyone would approve of flicking the lights off and on and blowing an air horn during an opponent's turn, while this may not be explicitly forbidden in the rules.

What I WILL do during a euro, especially when a game is new to some one, is remind them of a rule that might help them against me, or warn them as to what I am about to do.


Some of the most cutthroat, take-no-prisoners games I've ever play are four-player games of Carcassonne with experienced players. A player who doesn't actively try to lay tiles to block their opponents moves, steal their farms and cities, and convince other players to do likewise will not do well in these games.
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Chris Wilczewski
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kuhrusty wrote:
malmby wrote:
For our guys, it seems to go over well and works well [unless they secretly hate it]

If they do hate it, they should play faster. What do they expect the other players to do during that time--sit quietly doing nothing? Play another game?


I don't mean to defend AP BUT - Heaven forbid the other players might have to interact with one another.

AP in my group is rare, but when someone is taking a longer turn, we usually use that time to talk about other things. My game group is mostly enjoyable folks tho, so this may not apply to all.
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Don Lynch
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Not unless it's teaching, otherwise

VERBOTTEN !!!!!!

This obviously does not apply to a game that requires negotiation; many games don't.

Ultimately, most such advice boils down to "attack him not me".

.
 
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Boaty McBoatface
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alenen wrote:
kuhrusty wrote:
malmby wrote:
For our guys, it seems to go over well and works well [unless they secretly hate it]

If they do hate it, they should play faster. What do they expect the other players to do during that time--sit quietly doing nothing? Play another game?


I don't mean to defend AP BUT - Heaven forbid the other players might have to interact with one another.

AP in my group is rare, but when someone is taking a longer turn, we usually use that time to talk about other things. My game group is mostly enjoyable folks tho, so this may not apply to all.
And I recall other threads where that has been complained about (not by the OP to be sure), that talking about non game matters is a sign you are not paying attention to the game.

This is the point, what is good game etiquette in one group is rude and disruptive in another.

 
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Jonathan Warren
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hgman3 wrote:
Some of the most cutthroat, take-no-prisoners games I've ever play are four-player games of Carcassonne with experienced players. A player who doesn't actively try to lay tiles to block their opponents moves, steal their farms and cities, and convince other players to do likewise will not do well in these games.

Interesting in that Carcassonne actually has this specifically mentioned in the rulebook. You should 'advise' on tile placement in Carcassonne because it is in the rules
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Don Lynch
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JoffW wrote:
hgman3 wrote:
Some of the most cutthroat, take-no-prisoners games I've ever play are four-player games of Carcassonne with experienced players. A player who doesn't actively try to lay tiles to block their opponents moves, steal their farms and cities, and convince other players to do likewise will not do well in these games.

Interesting in that Carcassonne actually has this specifically mentioned in the rulebook. You should 'advise' on tile placement in Carcassonne because it is in the rules


After being cajoled into playing Carcassonne, that rule was sprung on me, which is one reason that I'll never play it again. The other is that the game sucked. And that doesn't mean I sucked at it.

 
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Rusty McFisticuffs
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alenen wrote:
kuhrusty wrote:
If they do hate it, they should play faster. What do they expect the other players to do during that time--sit quietly doing nothing? Play another game?

I don't mean to defend AP BUT - Heaven forbid the other players might have to interact with one another.

AP in my group is rare, but when someone is taking a longer turn, we usually use that time to talk about other things.

Yeah, I like to be fully engaged in the game the whole time I'm playing it; and if I'm not, I get cranky. (With people who play like that, if you're not taking your turn in a timely fashion, expect the rest of the table to help you!) As with every style of gamer, playing with like-minded people is necessary for avoiding frustration.
 
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For me it all depends on the game, like Pandemic or other Co-op's, I expect the other players to try to give out what my move should be but in other games I do not like it. However, if it is a new game and it is my first time I would like some small amount of coaching in the very first game so that I can get a good feel for how the game works.

That' my 2 cents.
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