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B-Sieged: Sons of the Abyss» Forums » General

Subject: Lot of Early Negative Reviews.... How is this AFTER the FAQ for SOLO Play ? rss

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James Boutilier
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been contemplating, looks like an interesting Tower Defense.
but the negativity towards it is concerning.
i saw the company put out official fixes/improvements

do they help? solo?

(( I also have the whole PANIC game series... is this much different? ))
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Chad Haney
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jgb7 wrote:
been contemplating, looks like an interesting Tower Defense.
but the negativity towards it is concerning.
i saw the company put out official fixes/improvements

do they help? solo?

(( I also have the whole PANIC game series... is this much different? ))



There weren't a ton of negative reviews really; one very high profile one from The Dice Tower for sure that seemed to taint opinions of the game rather severely but you just didnt hear much more about it after that. The FAQ/revised rules really addressed most of the issues with the game and I for one really enjoy this as a solo game.


I havent played any of the Castle Panic-style games so I cant speak to that.


good luck!
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James Boutilier
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thank you !
 
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Musab Abdulla
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I think the early difficulties the game had (negative Dice Tower review and missing information from the rulebook) is probably to blame for the limited publicity this game has.

Personally its one of my favorites. Ive played Star Trek Panic, but not Castle Panic. Compared with STP, this one beats it by far for me. Ironically, I feel that STP has much more random elements that B-Sieged (given that its one of the most common complaints against B-Sieged).

If you like coop tower defense and dont mind having the dice and card draws play a significant part in the easiness/difficult of any given game (similar to games like Zombicide), Id recommend giving it a shot.
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Dan Angevine
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Honestly I really like it after 1.1 version of rules. I have the kickstarter edition so I was on a few highs and lows -that first play thru out of the box was a real pain 3+ hours almost. After 1.1 rules we get it to the table usually every other month. Great 6 player coop and looks great on the table.
Solo wise I've only played a couple times - hardest thing for me was book keeping remember who goes and when. With a group around the table this is easier. Playing solo allows for more trial of roles or moves. The other thing to note is planning ahead so you're not stuck in a building your next character will need (only 1 hero per building).

Price wise it can be found cheap now new and probably able to score a Kickstarter copy for a reasonable price

Agree with the others so far - DT squawked about the dice rolls and then lots of other reviewers chirped the same thing dice rolls are random - however there are tokens (3 per player and can refresh them during game) to mitigate pips. Bgb buried it too after 1 game and said they would have preferred orcs and then said the theme was played out when reviewing the "orcs" expansion. There are lots of reasons to knock it as it's not perfect but it's a fun game that we've logged quite a few hours on and had some tension and laughs
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Colin
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We love it in our house, 2 players (4 characters) works great but you do have to plan well ahead and the card draw can be annoying so we house rule it. It looks terrific, one of the best looking games in my collection. Negative would be expensive and the house keeping for spawns and end of season cards. Can be quite a long game depending on thinking time.
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Just to point it out, the one high profile review from The Dice Tower really hurt the game PR wise. The developers stated that the rulebook that shipped with the game was missing a very important set up instruction. The game was very brutal from the get-go without it.

Sam, from the Dice Tower review, states that their is a good game in the box, just not in the rules. So he had an inkling that something fun was here, just not as written. If that one set-up rule was in the printed manual, I do believe the review would have been very different.

Jorune
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James Boutilier
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I gave in !

Ordered the Base game + Encampment Tiles.

Thanks everyone
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Sebastian Beck
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Good choice.

The negative publicity was unjustified in my opinion and it hurts to see that the designers of the game feel so depressed now. This game is stellar.

I play the game the hardcore way with all the standard rules without any of the patches.

And now we win every time. In the first two games we got really crushed hard. But after a while everything clicks.

The game is fantastic and one of the worst treated games by so called "professional" reviewers.

It is not a game for fast-food mentalists.
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Denis Maddalena
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Beckikaze wrote:
Good choice.

The negative publicity was unjustified in my opinion and it hurts to see that the designers of the game feel so depressed now. This game is stellar.

I play the game the hardcore way with all the standard rules without any of the patches.

And now we win every time. In the first two games we got really crushed hard. But after a while everything clicks.

The game is fantastic and one of the worst treated games by so called "professional" reviewers.

It is not a game for fast-food mentalists.


If you're winning every time now, that's a whole different issue.
 
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Sebastian Beck
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Indeed.

So we have to play with the Encampement Tile Set next time.
 
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J McAnulty
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Beckikaze wrote:
so called "professional" reviewers.


Are you positing that Mr. Vasel is not actually paid by his viewers for his work?

 
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Ryan C
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Beckikaze wrote:

The game is fantastic and one of the worst treated games by so called "professional" reviewers.


Couldn't agree more.

I stayed away from B-sieged for too long after watching the Dice Tower review, which essentially boiled down to "Blah Blah, too hard, blah blah, too random". Yet Tom loved Castle Panic, which is just as random as B-sieged in my opinion.

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Neil Moore
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My initial reaction to Toms review was to give this game a wide berth. But the measured comments that have followed in this thread and others, that while not shying away from some well documented negatives, also highlighted positives and suggested fixes, has changed my mind. Looks like I'm now in as well!
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PootJenkins wrote:
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There weren't a ton of negative reviews really; one very high profile one from The Dice Tower

Was there even a single positive review? I don't mean BGG user opinions, but a more professional review, all the reviews I've seen were negative, many like e.g. Boardgame Brawl even more negative than DT.
 
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Chad Haney
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borsook wrote:
PootJenkins wrote:
[

There weren't a ton of negative reviews really; one very high profile one from The Dice Tower

Was there even a single positive review? I don't mean BGG user opinions, but a more professional review, all the reviews I've seen were negative, many like e.g. Boardgame Brawl even more negative than DT.


Well, I searched and of all the reviews I could find (and in English!) here's how they break out:

Written reviews: 6 positive, 2 negative, 2 on the fence
Video reviews: 3 negative and 4 positive.

Granted, most of these are not 'professional' reviewers and the two highest profile being Dice Tower and Board Game Brawl are both decidedly negative. I was surprised to find there weren't more reviews from the popular board game media sources. I'm not sure why that is. There are a crap-ton of unboxing videos though.

All this to say that when you look at the totality of reviews, there definitely is no majority opinion that the game is bad; quite the contrary in fact. It's obvious the two high profile negative reviews that came out prior to the rules update really killed any chance for the game to get traction with gamers. It's not for everybody, but for me personally, B-Seiged is in my top 5 co-op/solo games and it's a shame we probably won't see any more content for it.

thanks for reading!
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PootJenkins wrote:
borsook wrote:
PootJenkins wrote:
[

There weren't a ton of negative reviews really; one very high profile one from The Dice Tower

Was there even a single positive review? I don't mean BGG user opinions, but a more professional review, all the reviews I've seen were negative, many like e.g. Boardgame Brawl even more negative than DT.


Well, I searched and of all the reviews I could find (and in English!) here's how they break out:

Written reviews: 6 positive, 2 negative, 2 on the fence
Video reviews: 3 negative and 4 positive.

Granted, most of these are not 'professional' reviewers and the two highest profile being Dice Tower and Board Game Brawl are both decidedly negative. I was surprised to find there weren't more reviews from the popular board game media sources. I'm not sure why that is. There are a crap-ton of unboxing videos though.

All this to say that when you look at the totality of reviews, there definitely is no majority opinion that the game is bad; quite the contrary in fact. It's obvious the two high profile negative reviews that came out prior to the rules update really killed any chance for the game to get traction with gamers. It's not for everybody, but for me personally, B-Seiged is in my top 5 co-op/solo games and it's a shame we probably won't see any more content for it.

thanks for reading!

Thanks for a nice summary. Indeed out of those positive reviews I do not know anyone, I do follow quite a few boardgame reviewers and I find that a review from somebody who I totally don't know, where I have no idea about their taste is of little value to me. Also, maybe because I don't get the KS culture, but part of what I like about boardgames are the physical components, getting everything I need in the box. If the manual is something I should just throw away and use a different ruleset then it does not bode well for the game. Even with current discounts this is not a cheap game and I do not believe we should be paying just for the miniatures, I take a game with cardboard tokens and good, well-tested rules over a pretty game that is effectively tested after the release any time.
 
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borsook wrote:
PootJenkins wrote:
borsook wrote:
PootJenkins wrote:
[

There weren't a ton of negative reviews really; one very high profile one from The Dice Tower

Was there even a single positive review? I don't mean BGG user opinions, but a more professional review, all the reviews I've seen were negative, many like e.g. Boardgame Brawl even more negative than DT.


Well, I searched and of all the reviews I could find (and in English!) here's how they break out:

Written reviews: 6 positive, 2 negative, 2 on the fence
Video reviews: 3 negative and 4 positive.

Granted, most of these are not 'professional' reviewers and the two highest profile being Dice Tower and Board Game Brawl are both decidedly negative. I was surprised to find there weren't more reviews from the popular board game media sources. I'm not sure why that is. There are a crap-ton of unboxing videos though.

All this to say that when you look at the totality of reviews, there definitely is no majority opinion that the game is bad; quite the contrary in fact. It's obvious the two high profile negative reviews that came out prior to the rules update really killed any chance for the game to get traction with gamers. It's not for everybody, but for me personally, B-Seiged is in my top 5 co-op/solo games and it's a shame we probably won't see any more content for it.

thanks for reading!

Thanks for a nice summary. Indeed out of those positive reviews I do not know anyone, I do follow quite a few boardgame reviewers and I find that a review from somebody who I totally don't know, where I have no idea about their taste is of little value to me. Also, maybe because I don't get the KS culture, but part of what I like about boardgames are the physical components, getting everything I need in the box. If the manual is something I should just throw away and use a different ruleset then it does not bode well for the game. Even with current discounts this is not a cheap game and I do not believe we should be paying just for the miniatures, I take a game with cardboard tokens and good, well-tested rules over a pretty game that is effectively tested after the release any time.


Just to clarify the rules issue...

There was a VERY important set up instruction that was missing from the print rulebook. This rule gave players help in mitigating bad dice rolls. Without it, the game is VERY hard. With it, the game is still hard, but manageable.

So it's not a complete rewrite or anything, its more of one set up instruction that was missing. That said, all reviewers can do is review the game with the rules in the box. There main complaint seemed to be the brutal difficulty of the game (which it is because of the missing set up instruction). In the Dice Tower review, Sam even said there's a good game in the box, just not in the rules. Missing rules happen unfortunately.

Jorune
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Jorune wrote:
borsook wrote:
PootJenkins wrote:
borsook wrote:
PootJenkins wrote:
[

There weren't a ton of negative reviews really; one very high profile one from The Dice Tower

Was there even a single positive review? I don't mean BGG user opinions, but a more professional review, all the reviews I've seen were negative, many like e.g. Boardgame Brawl even more negative than DT.


Well, I searched and of all the reviews I could find (and in English!) here's how they break out:

Written reviews: 6 positive, 2 negative, 2 on the fence
Video reviews: 3 negative and 4 positive.

Granted, most of these are not 'professional' reviewers and the two highest profile being Dice Tower and Board Game Brawl are both decidedly negative. I was surprised to find there weren't more reviews from the popular board game media sources. I'm not sure why that is. There are a crap-ton of unboxing videos though.

All this to say that when you look at the totality of reviews, there definitely is no majority opinion that the game is bad; quite the contrary in fact. It's obvious the two high profile negative reviews that came out prior to the rules update really killed any chance for the game to get traction with gamers. It's not for everybody, but for me personally, B-Seiged is in my top 5 co-op/solo games and it's a shame we probably won't see any more content for it.

thanks for reading!

Thanks for a nice summary. Indeed out of those positive reviews I do not know anyone, I do follow quite a few boardgame reviewers and I find that a review from somebody who I totally don't know, where I have no idea about their taste is of little value to me. Also, maybe because I don't get the KS culture, but part of what I like about boardgames are the physical components, getting everything I need in the box. If the manual is something I should just throw away and use a different ruleset then it does not bode well for the game. Even with current discounts this is not a cheap game and I do not believe we should be paying just for the miniatures, I take a game with cardboard tokens and good, well-tested rules over a pretty game that is effectively tested after the release any time.


Just to clarify the rules issue...

There was a VERY important set up instruction that was missing from the print rulebook. This rule gave players help in mitigating bad dice rolls. Without it, the game is VERY hard. With it, the game is still hard, but manageable.

So it's not a complete rewrite or anything, its more of one set up instruction that was missing. That said, all reviewers can do is review the game with the rules in the box. There main complaint seemed to be the brutal difficulty of the game (which it is because of the missing set up instruction). In the Dice Tower review, Sam even said there's a good game in the box, just not in the rules. Missing rules happen unfortunately.

Jorune

Just watched a third review - Cyrils Brettspiele - an also a negative one. Seems it's not so much the difficulty that's the issue but the fact it all depends on randomness and not player actions. Also - a setup rule that mitigates dice rolls?? in what way?
 
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Denis Maddalena
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Yeah, the randomness of everything is the main complaint. Very little control in anything, and you really need some stuff to go your way.

But the same can be said of most coops. There's a FEELING of control in many of the popular ones, and there are mitigating controls in the form of abilities in a lot of them. When it comes down to it though, Pandemic viruses will spawn in a random way and you randomly get cards to help you move. Eldritch Horror gives you the ability to choose what type of card you'll encounter, but you might well wait five turns to get something a particular location is supposed to have a majority of, and the Mythos cards are going to screw you no matter what.

The only thing that really makes B-Sieged frustrating is its difficulty and that there are no illusions of control as disguised as the other games that have been very well received.

Yeah, it's expensive... it's CMON. I could also think of at least ten other coops you should try before this one. But it's fun enough if you like the Zombicide style "X Y+" attack system. It ain't mind blowing, but it's a hell of a lot better than Runecast.

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eypyeash wrote:
Yeah, the randomness of everything is the main complaint. Very little control in anything, and you really need some stuff to go your way.

But the same can be said of most coops. There's a FEELING of control in many of the popular ones, and there are mitigating controls in the form of abilities in a lot of them. When it comes down to it though, Pandemic viruses will spawn in a random way and you randomly get cards to help you move. Eldritch Horror gives you the ability to choose what type of card you'll encounter, but you might well wait five turns to get something a particular location is supposed to have a majority of, and the Mythos cards are going to screw you no matter what.

The only thing that really makes B-Sieged frustrating is its difficulty and that there are no illusions of control as disguised as the other games that have been very well received.

Yeah, it's expensive... it's CMON. I could also think of at least ten other coops you should try before this one. But it's fun enough if you like the Zombicide style "X Y+" attack system. It ain't mind blowing, but it's a hell of a lot better than Runecast.


I disagree with your assessment of randomness especially in Pandemic. But that's not the point I'd like to make. I love tower defense games and on tabletop we don't have many, most notably Sylvion and Castle Panic. The draw of Tower defense is building up your defenses and seeing them work. Both games I mention have randomness in the card draw, you may not be able to always do what you want, but when you can, it works. Your defenses are reliable and that gives you satisfaction. Putting the randomness into a diceroll means that you lose that, your defenses may or may not work. And that is not what most people play this genre for, at least in my opinion.
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borsook wrote:
eypyeash wrote:
Yeah, the randomness of everything is the main complaint. Very little control in anything, and you really need some stuff to go your way.

But the same can be said of most coops. There's a FEELING of control in many of the popular ones, and there are mitigating controls in the form of abilities in a lot of them. When it comes down to it though, Pandemic viruses will spawn in a random way and you randomly get cards to help you move. Eldritch Horror gives you the ability to choose what type of card you'll encounter, but you might well wait five turns to get something a particular location is supposed to have a majority of, and the Mythos cards are going to screw you no matter what.

The only thing that really makes B-Sieged frustrating is its difficulty and that there are no illusions of control as disguised as the other games that have been very well received.

Yeah, it's expensive... it's CMON. I could also think of at least ten other coops you should try before this one. But it's fun enough if you like the Zombicide style "X Y+" attack system. It ain't mind blowing, but it's a hell of a lot better than Runecast.


I disagree with your assessment of randomness especially in Pandemic. But that's not the point I'd like to make. I love tower defense games and on tabletop we don't have many, most notably Sylvion and Castle Panic. The draw of Tower defense is building up your defenses and seeing them work. Both games I mention have randomness in the card draw, you may not be able to always do what you want, but when you can, it works. Your defenses are reliable and that gives you satisfaction. Putting the randomness into a diceroll means that you lose that, your defenses may or may not work. And that is not what most people play this genre for, at least in my opinion.


No, this isn't a Euro. You are rolling dice to hit. Same as Zombicide. If you don't like the randomness of Zombicide, you won't like it here.

But the missing set up instruction gives you 3 tokens for each hero that allows you to add or minus 1 from your die roll. Combine this with better equipment and/or skills that allow a wider range to hit, and you start mitigating those poor dice rolls. This is how you build up your defenses in this game. The castle is static. It's the heroes you have to build up. They can get more of these tokens by visiting a building, they can level up and get better skills, they can visit the armory for better armor/weapons.

Your goal is to get a scout off the map and than protect his return. The enemy will come. It will feel like you are overwhelmed. All that matters is protect that scout both ways and you win.

All I can say is I really enjoy the theme, it's a random dice chucking castle defense game that requires some skill. The dice may go against you and suck the fun out of a play, but that will happen with ANY dice based system. Read the updates rulebook and the official FAQ (that includes variants for difficulty levels). Let us know what you think.

Just for reference, I dislike Castle Panic. Too simplistic.
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Sebastian Beck
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We play with the Basic settings, so no Grace Devine tokens at Start. Hardest difficulty and we win most of the times now. And that really Shows that there are many more ways to mitigate luck instead of the Setup.


B-Sieged has a learning curve. Stop playing it like Zombicide. Plan your moves!!! Use the locations.

The rules update was only created because the two mainstream reviewers almost killed the public attention for this game. You really Do not need the updated rules. We play without them. And it is winnable. And fantastic.
 
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Denis Maddalena
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I dunno, supposedly the Divine Grace tokens thing was accidentally left out... not necessarily thrown in cuz reviewers complained.

At the end of the day, it got a bunch of money from the KS, so I'd be surprised if it were a monetary loss for them.

Personally, I really like the variant of keeping the top card of each location deck revealed, and triggering bad stuff automatically when it gets revealed. You don't know what's in the rest of the stack, but it's nice seeing the top card. Makes the whole game feel more full of real choice. This does hose the ability that lets you look at the top card of a deck (except it also lets you look at the top event cards). Instead, tweak that one to seeing everything in the stack and... solved, and really useful.

WITH this variant I like B-Sieged. It feels fair and still a challenge instead of likely drawing cards you can't use, and even crappy cards on top promote wanting to see the next one.

It's not particularly good without it. Really fiddly, requires too much table space... just the map requires a 30"x30" play area, and that's before you get into the giant player mats. But you start to appreciate the nuances as you play more. Characters are way more than Zombicide's generic level system, since each one is only good at using particular items. The traitor orc from the expansion is completely bonkers at taking out heavy units in the third rank, for example, so can rack up a lot of morale and tank during late game, but doesn't get any use out of the "class specific" items (red discards). The wizards aren't very good at a glance, but they're the only ones who can use the really powerful stuff from the Arcane deck, stopping entire lanes from advancing or setting up persistent death zones.

Carnival Zombie is still the best of the type, but this one is worth a shot if you're willing to fiddle with the rules a bit.
 
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Jorune wrote:
borsook wrote:
eypyeash wrote:
Yeah, the randomness of everything is the main complaint. Very little control in anything, and you really need some stuff to go your way.

But the same can be said of most coops. There's a FEELING of control in many of the popular ones, and there are mitigating controls in the form of abilities in a lot of them. When it comes down to it though, Pandemic viruses will spawn in a random way and you randomly get cards to help you move. Eldritch Horror gives you the ability to choose what type of card you'll encounter, but you might well wait five turns to get something a particular location is supposed to have a majority of, and the Mythos cards are going to screw you no matter what.

The only thing that really makes B-Sieged frustrating is its difficulty and that there are no illusions of control as disguised as the other games that have been very well received.

Yeah, it's expensive... it's CMON. I could also think of at least ten other coops you should try before this one. But it's fun enough if you like the Zombicide style "X Y+" attack system. It ain't mind blowing, but it's a hell of a lot better than Runecast.


I disagree with your assessment of randomness especially in Pandemic. But that's not the point I'd like to make. I love tower defense games and on tabletop we don't have many, most notably Sylvion and Castle Panic. The draw of Tower defense is building up your defenses and seeing them work. Both games I mention have randomness in the card draw, you may not be able to always do what you want, but when you can, it works. Your defenses are reliable and that gives you satisfaction. Putting the randomness into a diceroll means that you lose that, your defenses may or may not work. And that is not what most people play this genre for, at least in my opinion.


No, this isn't a Euro. You are rolling dice to hit. Same as Zombicide. If you don't like the randomness of Zombicide, you won't like it here.

But the missing set up instruction gives you 3 tokens for each hero that allows you to add or minus 1 from your die roll. Combine this with better equipment and/or skills that allow a wider range to hit, and you start mitigating those poor dice rolls. This is how you build up your defenses in this game. The castle is static. It's the heroes you have to build up. They can get more of these tokens by visiting a building, they can level up and get better skills, they can visit the armory for better armor/weapons.

Your goal is to get a scout off the map and than protect his return. The enemy will come. It will feel like you are overwhelmed. All that matters is protect that scout both ways and you win.

All I can say is I really enjoy the theme, it's a random dice chucking castle defense game that requires some skill. The dice may go against you and suck the fun out of a play, but that will happen with ANY dice based system. Read the updates rulebook and the official FAQ (that includes variants for difficulty levels). Let us know what you think.

Just for reference, I dislike Castle Panic. Too simplistic.

Thanks for the explanation about the tokens, that does seem to make at least some difference. For the record I would not consider Zombicide a good game, it's a also too random for my taste, albeit tactical movement allows for some mitigation.
 
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