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Arkham Horror: The Card Game» Forums » Rules

Subject: discover a clue rss

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Immortal
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when a card tell you that you discover a clue on your location, but there is no clue on the actual location, do you still get the clue from no where?

For exemple, the roland ability say that you discover a clue on your location if you kill am onstero n your location. If you alrdy in investigated all the current clues on it, do you still get an other one?
 
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Todd Warnken
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nightwishpower wrote:
when a card tell you that you discover a clue on your location, but there is no clue on the actual location, do you still get the clue from no where?

For exemple, the roland ability say that you discover a clue on your location if you kill am onstero n your location. If you alrdy in investigated all the current clues on it, do you still get an other one?


Based on this section of the Rules Reference Guide I would say you do not get a clue.

RRG Page 7 wrote:
A card ability that refers to clues “at a location” is referring to the undiscovered clues that are currently on that location.
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Andrew Keddie
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RRG p.6, Subheading 'Clue' wrote:
A clue at a location can be discovered by successfully
investigating the location (see “Investigate Action” on page
13), or by a card ability. If an investigator discovers a
clue,
he or she takes the clue from the location and places
it on his or her investigator card, under his or her control.


Emphasis added.
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Scott Dockery
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The number of clues in each scenario is intended to be fixed (unless, of course, the scenario's own cards change things, as in Curse of the Rougarou--and even then, extra clues are placed first on locations so you can discover them).
 
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Edgar Molas
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Mundane wrote:
nightwishpower wrote:
when a card tell you that you discover a clue on your location, but there is no clue on the actual location, do you still get the clue from no where?

For exemple, the roland ability say that you discover a clue on your location if you kill am onstero n your location. If you alrdy in investigated all the current clues on it, do you still get an other one?


Based on this section of the Rules Reference Guide I would say you do not get a clue.

RRG Page 7 wrote:
A card ability that refers to clues “at a location” is referring to the undiscovered clues that are currently on that location.


Ok. Agreed. But what about this situation:

1) Roland's ability triggers and there is no clue avaliable at my location.
2) I have the Cover Up weakness on my threat area.

Do I remove one clue token from Cover Up?
 
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Andrew Keddie
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EdgarMolas wrote:
Mundane wrote:
nightwishpower wrote:
when a card tell you that you discover a clue on your location, but there is no clue on the actual location, do you still get the clue from no where?

For exemple, the roland ability say that you discover a clue on your location if you kill am onstero n your location. If you alrdy in investigated all the current clues on it, do you still get an other one?


Based on this section of the Rules Reference Guide I would say you do not get a clue.

RRG Page 7 wrote:
A card ability that refers to clues “at a location” is referring to the undiscovered clues that are currently on that location.


Ok. Agreed. But what about this situation:

1) Roland's ability triggers and there is no clue avaliable at my location.
2) I have the Cover Up weakness on my threat area.

Do I remove one clue token from Cover Up?


Reading the RRG entry for "instead" I would say yes.
 
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Edgar Molas
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Hum...I'm still not sure about it.

Here is what I think:

1) The abilities in question do not use the "Instead" keyword. If the Cover Up card had been written as "Instead of discovering 1 clue token....", then I would agree.

The card Burglary does exactly that:

[Action] Exhaust Burglary: Investigate. If you succeed, instead of discovering clues, gain 3 resources.

2) RRG page 3 says:

"All triggered abilities are governed by the following rules:

(...)

A triggered ability can only be initiated if its effect as
the potential to change the game state, and its cost (if
any) has the potential to be paid in full, taking active
cost modifers into account...."

So in this situation Roland's ability won't be initiated because it won't chance the game state since there are no clues to be discovered.

By consequence the Cover Up won't trigger either.

Does that make sense?
 
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J P
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EdgarMolas wrote:
Hum...I'm still not sure about it.

Here is what I think:

1) The abilities in question do not use the "Instead" keyword. If the Cover Up card had been written as "Instead of discovering 1 clue token....", then I would agree.

The card Burglary does exactly that:

[Action] Exhaust Burglary: Investigate. If you succeed, instead of discovering clues, gain 3 resources.

2) RRG page 3 says:

"All triggered abilities are governed by the following rules:

(...)

A triggered ability can only be initiated if its effect as
the potential to change the game state, and its cost (if
any) has the potential to be paid in full, taking active
cost modifers into account...."

So in this situation Roland's ability won't be initiated because it won't chance the game state since there are no clues to be discovered.

By consequence the Cover Up won't trigger either.

Does that make sense?



Cover Up says:

"[Reaction] When you would discover 1 or more clues at your location: Discard that many clues from Cover Up instead."
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Edgar Molas
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DancingFool wrote:
EdgarMolas wrote:
Hum...I'm still not sure about it.

Here is what I think:

1) The abilities in question do not use the "Instead" keyword. If the Cover Up card had been written as "Instead of discovering 1 clue token....", then I would agree.

The card Burglary does exactly that:

[Action] Exhaust Burglary: Investigate. If you succeed, instead of discovering clues, gain 3 resources.

2) RRG page 3 says:

"All triggered abilities are governed by the following rules:

(...)

A triggered ability can only be initiated if its effect as
the potential to change the game state, and its cost (if
any) has the potential to be paid in full, taking active
cost modifiers into account...."

So in this situation Roland's ability won't be initiated because it won't chance the game state since there are no clues to be discovered.

By consequence the Cover Up won't trigger either.

Does that make sense?



Cover Up says:

"[Reaction] When you would discover 1 or more clues at your location: Discard that many clues from Cover Up instead."


Indeed my friend! Sorry about that! But my second point is still valid, isn't it? The player wouldn't discover any clues because there is none to be discovered.

Anyways, I think I'll stick to the Grim Rule (RRG page 2):

"If players are unable to find the answer to a rules or timing conflict
in this Rules Reference, resolve the conflict in the manner that
the players perceive as the worst possible at that moment with
regards to winning the scenario, and continue with the game."

Which means we need a room with clues to resolve the Cover Up weakness.

I'll be waiting for an official clarification since I'm probably wrong on this one.
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Joltin' Joe
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EdgarMolas wrote:
DancingFool wrote:
EdgarMolas wrote:
Hum...I'm still not sure about it.

Here is what I think:

1) The abilities in question do not use the "Instead" keyword. If the Cover Up card had been written as "Instead of discovering 1 clue token....", then I would agree.

The card Burglary does exactly that:

[Action] Exhaust Burglary: Investigate. If you succeed, instead of discovering clues, gain 3 resources.

2) RRG page 3 says:

"All triggered abilities are governed by the following rules:

(...)

A triggered ability can only be initiated if its effect as
the potential to change the game state, and its cost (if
any) has the potential to be paid in full, taking active
cost modifiers into account...."

So in this situation Roland's ability won't be initiated because it won't chance the game state since there are no clues to be discovered.

By consequence the Cover Up won't trigger either.

Does that make sense?



Cover Up says:

"[Reaction] When you would discover 1 or more clues at your location: Discard that many clues from Cover Up instead."


Indeed my friend! Sorry about that! But my second point is still valid, isn't it? The player wouldn't discover any clues because there is none to be discovered.

Anyways, I think I'll stick to the Grim Rule (RRG page 2):

"If players are unable to find the answer to a rules or timing conflict
in this Rules Reference, resolve the conflict in the manner that
the players perceive as the worst possible at that moment with
regards to winning the scenario, and continue with the game."

Which means we need a room with clues to resolve the Cover Up weakness.

I'll be waiting for an official clarification since I'm probably wrong on this one.


I think you are right, Edgar.

Under the entry for "When" in the Rules Reference, it says this:

The word “when” refers to the moment immediately after the
specified timing point or triggering condition initiates, but
before its impact upon the game state resolves. The resolution of
a “when” ability interrupts the resolution of its timing point or
triggering condition. (For example, an ability that reads “When you
draw an enemy card” initiates immediately after you draw the enemy
card, but before resolving its revelation ability, spawning it, etc.)

Cover Up has an (optional) Reaction Trigger that says:

"When you would discover 1 or more clues at your location: ..."

So it is referring to the moment immediately after you would discover 1 or more clues, that the discarding effect would take place.

However, discovered clues have to be taken from the location card. If there are none to be had, none can be discovered, although a successful skill test could have been made. (I don't know exactly why one would wish to spend an action investigating when you would know ahead of time there is no clue to be had, but there could be some card interaction that would make it worthwhile, I guess.)

Since the player will have discovered no clue, then Cover Up's effect doesn't get triggered.

I don't, however, think this is relevant to changing the game state. The rule you quoted says that the *effect* of the ability has to have the potential to change the game state. The effect of Cover Up is that one or more clues gets discarded from Cover Up, which does change the game state. In this case, it is the trigger of Cover Up which isn't changing the game state, not the effect. That part of the rules would kick in if the player were trying, say, to activate Cover Up when there were no more clues on Cover Up.

 
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mplain
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If there are no clues on the location, you cannot trigger Cover Up.

This is like 100% correct, because it has been asked about twenty times already.
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MC Shudde M'ell
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This was covered in the FAQ that was published on cardgamedb (which is currently offline again, something is happening over there). Cover Up does require actual Clues to be present in sufficient number, the Rogue card that gives Resources for Investigate does not (because it is worded slightly differently).
 
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