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Codex: Card-Time Strategy – Deluxe Set» Forums » Rules

Subject: Return tokens to hand rss

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Bernhard Vierthaler
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Future deck, Forgotten Fighter: Return a patrolling tech 0 or I unit with 2 ATK or less to its owner's hand.

If the other player has a patrolling token (e.g. A Wisp) and I play the Forgotten Fighter: can I target the token? And if so: is the token destroyed? I guess so (similar to the explanation of the Temporal Distortion on the Sirlin page).
 
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Tilou
France
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Yes and yes!
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Jason Reid
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tilouboy wrote:
Yes and yes!


It is destroyed, but it doesn't technically die. So, if e.g. you cast FF on a token in the Scavenger patrol slot, you opponent does not get a gold.
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Dustin Crenshaw
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jasonwocky wrote:
tilouboy wrote:
Yes and yes!


It is destroyed, but it doesn't technically die. So, if e.g. you cast FF on a token in the Scavenger patrol slot, you opponent does not get a gold.


Destroyed isn't died in this game?
 
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Tilou
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SeerMagic wrote:
jasonwocky wrote:
tilouboy wrote:
Yes and yes!


It is destroyed, but it doesn't technically die. So, if e.g. you cast FF on a token in the Scavenger patrol slot, you opponent does not get a gold.


Destroyed isn't died in this game?


To die is to be put in the discard pile. A token doesn't go to the discard pile.

Edit: Actually the token does go to the discard pile but vanishes.
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Rabid Schnauzer
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Tokens can only exist while in play. A bounce effect removes them from play, but "dies: do X" effects (such as the Scavenger and Technician bonuses) are only triggered when something goes to the discard.

Personally, I think these rules are not intuitive, but they are technically the designer's intent.
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Scott Douglass
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The language people use to describe this interaction is not always clear, which exacerbates the issue. Effects that return a unit to its owner's hand can target a token. Tokens are always tech 0 units. Tokens can only exist in play, so once you return a token to hand, it is destroyed. In effect, this looks like killing the token in most senses, but it does not actually die, and it is only destroyed after leaving play, so it will not trigger the scavenger or technician bonuses.

I think this interaction makes sense, although I can see why some consider it counterintuitive.
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P Diddy
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Unfortunately, as this game is Version 1.0, the rules are not as ironclad as a 20 year old game you might be familiar with.

Tokens (non-Card Tech 0 Units) do "die", and technically can be discarded and trashed and returned to your Hand by abilities, and trigger Patrol Zone effects, but as they are not Cards, are not allowed to be in Discard pile or your Hand. For example, if a Token ends up discarded, it returns to the location it came from in the first place instead. (notice how there isn't a defined location where Tokens come from?)
 
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Jason Reid
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Ryjak wrote:
Unfortunately, as this game is Version 1.0, the rules are not as ironclad as a 20 year old game you might be familiar with.

Tokens (non-Card Tech 0 Units) do "die", and technically can be discarded and trashed and returned to your Hand by abilities, and trigger Patrol Zone effects, but as they are not Cards, are not allowed to be in Discard pile or your Hand. For example, if a Token ends up discarded, it returns to the location it came from in the first place instead. (notice how there isn't a defined location where Tokens come from?)


Yes, it's true. If you kill a token in combat, it "dies" (even though it doesn't go to your discard pile), and your opponent gets a patrol bonus. However if you return a token to your opponent's hand, it will be destroyed as soon as it reaches your opponent's hand (as it cannot exist in your opponent's hand), but it won't trigger any "Dies:" effects.

Or to put things another way, bouncing a unit never triggers "Dies:" effects, whether or not the unit can exist in your opponent's hand.
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Andrew Hauge
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In short: bouncing a token isn't killing it. Since tokens can't be cards in your hand, they're just removed from play instead.
 
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Jørgen G
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I don't know what to make of this, sdougla2 says tokens does not trigger Dies effects, whilst Ryjak and jasonwocky says it does.

What is correct?

From the rules it says dokens are destroyed, and that the patrolling trigger when unit dies.
 
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Alex Churchill
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If a scavenger dies in combat, you will get the $1, whether or not the unit was a token.

If a scavenger is returned to your hand, you will NOT get the $1, whether or not the unit was a token.


For a token, in both cases, the token ceases to exist (is trashed) the moment it leaves play.
For a normal unit, if it died it ends up in the discard pile; if it got bounced it ends up in your hand.
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David Sirlin
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Actually, the rules are quite solid on this issue. "Dies" has a very specific meaning: it's when units/heroes go from in-play to discard. It's not anything other than that.

Example: a token goes to your hand. Did it go from in play to discard? No. So it didn't "die". Tokens can't exist outside the in-play zone, so the token vanishes, but it doesn't trigger anything that would trigger on "dies."

Example2: a token is killed in combat so it goes to the discard pile. Does it "die"? Yes, it went from in play to the discard pile. So it did "die" and anything that triggers on "dies" really does trigger. Also, tokens can't exist outside of the in-play zone, so the token vanishes.

EDIT: oh and to answer the original question, yes the token can be targeted. Tokens are tech 0 so that's a valid target for the spell. It attempts to go to hand, but then is destroyed because tokens can't exist outside the in-play zone. And patrol zone bonuses don't trigger because no where in any of this did something go from in-play to discard, so no where in any of this did something "die".
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