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Subject: Trace Supply - A supply source is a supply source? rss

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Gordon G
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It seems there is a logic loop in the definition of Supply Sources.

Per 12.6a, a supply source is a "Detrainable hex"

Per 13.3c, A "Detrainable hex" is a village....that can trace a path back to a supply source...another village.

So I could have two villages, connected by rail but otherwise cut off from all other supply sources, that are in supply solely by tracing back and forth to each other?

Granted, I'm assuming the intent is to have the rail line run from the village all the way back to the map edge (or port connected to map edge), but I can't find any reference to that effect.

Has no one ever noticed this before?
 
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Antonio B-D
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Gordon,

If the second village is cut off it is not a supply source so the first one is not a supply source. You can keep tracing village to village until you reach a supply source that does not need further help. Does it make sense?
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Gordon G
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abendoso wrote:
Gordon,

If the second village is cut off it is not a supply source so the first one is not a supply source. You can keep tracing village to village until you reach a supply source that does not need further help. Does it make sense?


It does make sense but that's not what the rules say. The rules essentially say;

Supply source (village) = Detrainable hex connected by rail to = Supply source (village)

Therfore; supply source (village) = supply source (village)


As an example. If:

Village A is connected by rail to Village B
Village B is connected by rail to Village C
Village C is connected by rail to Village A

Therefore;
Village B is a "supply source" since it can connect to Village C by rail (para 12.6a-2 and 13.3c)
Village C is a "supply source" since it can connect to Village A by rail
Village A is a "supply source" since it can connect to Village B by rail

Villages A, B and C are all in supply

 
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Micheal Spiering
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See 13.3c.The hex is no longer detrainable because it does not connect to a supply source.

All supply sources either start at a port or a map edge starting hex. If any detrainable hex is unable to trace a clear line back to one of these points it is no longer detrainable and no longer a supply source.
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Micheal Spiering
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Think of it as a string of beautiful Christmas lights! The detrainable hexes are the bulbs and the port or map edge rail hexes are the outlets. If for any reason the bulbs connection is broken to the outlet they no longer produce light(supply).
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John Kisner
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You seem to be missing part of what makes a hex 'detrainable'. It requires more than just a village on a RR.

13.3c Detrainable Hexes. A railroad hex is detrainable if it meets all of these requirements:
• It has a village, city (any size), port, or Engineer-Capable HQ (13.8a).
• It is under control (13.3h).
• It has a rail path free of enemy ZOC back to a supply source. Extender links can be part of this for trace supply, but not for moving cargo. Note EZOC cannot be negated to move cargo, but can to connect with a supply source.

But maybe something else made you think a village was a supply source if it was connected to another village?
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Gordon G
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Summarizing a bit to clarify...

kisner wrote:

13.3c Detrainable Hexes. A railroad hex is detrainable if it meets all of these requirements:
• It has a village,
• It has a rail path free of enemy ZOC back to a supply source.


The key sentence is para 12.6a, 'A supply source is a Detrainable hex'

Supply source = Detrainable hex
Detrainable hex = Supply source


Now substituting the sentence from para 12.6a back into bullet two of 13.3c

13.3c Detrainable Hexes. A railroad hex is detrainable if it meets all of these requirements:
• It has a village,
• It has a rail path free of enemy ZOC back to a DETRAINABLE HEX

and final substituition knowing that a detrainable hex = supply source

13.3c Detrainable Hexes. A railroad hex is a SUPPLY SOURCE if it meets all of these requirements:
• It has a village,
• It has a rail path free of enemy ZOC back to a DETRAINABLE HEX


spiering8 wrote:
All supply sources either start at a port or a map edge starting hex.


Where in the rules does it say that??

I get the analogy of the Christmas tree lights, but I see no requirement in the rules that the "plug" for the lights must ultimately be a map edge or port (leading to a map edge).

Para 12.6a specifically say the "plug" can plug back into a "light" (ie. detrainable hex)
 
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Bill Lawson
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Heres 12.6a


12.6a There are thee kinds of Supply
Sources:
1) Map-edge railroad hexes that allow
Reinforcement entry, plus other
supply sources mentioned in the
game-specific rules, or
2) Detrainable hexes (see 13.3c), or
3) Hexes with an Extender (12.7)
that connects to a detrainable hex
or directly to a supply source.
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ER Bickford
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Watch out. Dean has rolled up the newspaper!!!!!
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Tankboy
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Quote:
It has a rail path free of enemy ZOC


This alone dictates that if your supply path is blocked by an enemy zone of control, then any "Detrainable Hex's" beyond that are now no longer a supply source.

Where is your confusion here? If you have a map edge source of supply called "A", which connects to a village further down the rail-net called "B", and you just took control of another village called "C" even further away, then "C" is your furthest Supply Source. If an enemy unit cuts your line between "A" and "B" (Sucks to be you), then map edge "A" is now your Supply Source until you get rid of that EZOC. How do you expect "B" and "C" to get supplies if they can no longer get trains from "A" to detrain supply?

 
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Bill Lawson
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13.3c Detrainable Hexes. A railroad
hex is detrainable if it meets all of these
requirements:
• It has a village, city (any size), port,
or Engineer-Capable HQ (13.8a).
• It is under control (13.3h).
• It has a rail path free of enemy ZOC
back to a supply source. Extender
links can be part of this for trace
supply, but not for moving cargo.
Note EZOC cannot be negated to
move cargo, but can to connect with
a supply source.
 
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Kev.
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Literalism and semantics. Troubling times for OCS rules.
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Matt Blackman
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I've got 4.1a rules open and under 12.0 Supply it says "Combat units must trace a path to a supply source, usually a port or map edge."

Game specific rules on supply sources in Tunisia 1 were 2.4b for the Axis (Tunis and Bizerte) and 3.2a for the Allies (Bone, A1.15 and later B62.07) both with riders about smaller scenarios.

 
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Gordon G
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Fly by Night wrote:

Where is your confusion here?


No confusion. Just that the rules, as currently written have no requirement that Trace supply ever work it's way back to a map edge. Rather, para 12.6a allows supply to be provided by an endless loop of Detrainable hexes.

Case in point;

The Brit 36 Inf brigade needs to Trace supply. Luckily, nearby is the detrainable hex, the village of Kalaa Djerda.



Of course we know Kalaa Djerda is only a supply source if, per para 13.3c, it can trace a rail path free of enemy ZOC back to a supply source...per para 12.6a, another Detrainable hex! No worries, just to the southwest lies the village of Haidra.

Of course, Haidra is only a supply source if it can trace supply as well. Again, luck is with us. Further to the southwest lies the minor city of Tebessa



But alas, Tebessa is only a supply source if it can trace supply to.. you guessed it, another detrainable hex. But to the north lies the village of Clairefontaine.



Unfortunately, the Italian unit is blocking the rail line to the map edge. No worries, Clairefontaine can trace supply to yet another detrainable hex, the village of Quenza to the east.



But wait, Quenza is only a supply source if... it can trace supply to yet another detrainable hex. And of course, we look along the rail line and we find the next supply source per 12.6a, the village of Kalaa Djerda. Where we started.



So, barring a requirement to ultimately Trace supply to a map edge I can trace supply in a never ending circle, or, even better, by bouncing between two Detrainable hexes.

Do you see my point?
 
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Bill Lawson
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GordoMG wrote:
Fly by Night wrote:

Where is your confusion here?


No confusion. Just that the rules, as currently written have no requirement that Trace supply ever work it's way back to a map edge. Rather, para 12.6a allows supply to be provided by an endless loop of Detrainable hexes.

Case in point;

The Brit 36 Inf brigade needs to Trace supply. Luckily, nearby is the detrainable hex, the village of Kalaa Djerda.



Of course we know Kalaa Djerda is only a supply source if, per para 13.3c, it can trace a rail path free of enemy ZOC back to a supply source...per para 12.6a, another Detrainable hex! No worries, just to the southwest lies the village of Haidra.

Of course, Haidra is only a supply source if it can trace supply as well. Again, luck is with us. Further to the southwest lies the minor city of Tebessa



But alas, Tebessa is only a supply source if it can trace supply to.. you guessed it, another detrainable hex. But to the north lies the village of Clairefontaine.



Unfortunately, the Italian unit is blocking the rail line to the map edge. No worries, Clairefontaine can trace supply to yet another detrainable hex, the village of Quenza to the east.



But wait, Quenza is only a supply source if... it can trace supply to yet another detrainable hex. And of course, we look along the rail line and we find the next supply source per 12.6a, the village of Kalaa Djerda. Where we started.



So, barring a requirement to ultimately Trace supply to a map edge I can trace supply in a never ending circle, or, even better, by bouncing between two Detrainable hexes.

Do you see my point?


No. You've missed the point . Read 13.3 again. A village is not a detrainable hex if it cannot trace back to an ultimate supply source. You've missed the definition of detrainable hex.
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Kev.
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Come on dude.
Why you insist on doing this with every game, when common sense and a little logic and what the rules lawyers have responded to for you beggars me.
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Tankboy
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Game specific rules take precedence. Each and every scenario in the OCS details where your starting supply sources are, usually a map edge. All supply paths need to connect back to this point. Some scenario's have multiple initial supply entry points.

The Series rules don't mention this per se, but it should be reasonably evident.
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Micheal Spiering
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Maybe if we all keep looking hard enough we can find a way to make the rules say being in reserve isn't a mode but a state of mind.
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Gordon G
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billyboy wrote:

No. You've missed the point . Read 13.3 again. A village is not a detrainable hex if it cannot trace back to an ultimate supply source. You've missed the definition of detrainable hex.


I've looked at it a dozen times or more, and no matter how hard I look at it there is no requirement to trace supply to anything other than a Supply Source. And per para 12.6a, a Supply source is a detrainable hex that can trace to another detrainable hex, that can trace to another detrainable hex, that can trace to another detrainable hex infinitum.

I get it. You guys are experts and have been playing it so long it's clear that the rules imply that supply ultimately should go to a map edge. I'm fine with that and that's the way I will play it.

But also realize I don't see things like you. I don't have anyone to teach me these "interpretations". I have black ink on white paper and myself to figure it out what that means. If I were the author I'd simply say.. "yup, that's a weird but possible interpretation. A better way of writing para 12.6 a would be..

A Supply Source is;
2) a detrainable hex...from which a path of connected rail hexes ...can be traced to a map edge supply source"

Taa daa..add two words "map edge" and it clears it up.

Thanks for the help.
 
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Gordon G
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hipshot wrote:
Come on dude.
Why you insist on doing this with every game, when common sense and a little logic and what the rules lawyers have responded to for you beggars me.


Every game? You know every game I've played?

Ultimately it's because you're just so much smarter than I am. Apologizes for trying to learn the system.
 
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Kev.
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No.
The amount of time you put into to proving your point would be usefully spent groking the rule.
Since you are taking offense I'll suggest to you then that you play it as you see fit. Most people do. If you think a circular supply model is what was written then play that way.

I've asked similar questions here and got the answer and accepted it at face value. You keep digging on it, posting pictures and now being angry at everyone else because the words based on your interpretation and reading appear to not say what you think they should.

Meanwhile everyone has been very helpful up to the point where you wont let it go. We have similar collections and I see these threads from you on a regular basis. Some rule books just suck. There is no doubt. I think here for the most part they are pretty clear.

I hope you work it out as it is worth do so. Enjoy.

The supply sources you have been looking for are here:



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Matt Blackman
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GordoMG wrote:

I've looked at it a dozen times or more...Just that the rules, as currently written have no requirement that Trace supply ever work it's way back to a map edge.



And yet you missed the text which tells you (12.0) that combat units must trace supply to a supply source, usually a map edge or port.
The word 'usually' here means 'in the absence of being told otherwise.'

And then you've ignored the game specific rules which reveal - would you know it - the required ports and map edges. These game specific rules also define exceptions to 'usually' should there be any in play.

I pointed this out before you began posting pictures, and had you read it you'd have saved yourself a lot of time and errors.

So contrary to your assertion, there are clear rules requiring trace supply to work back to a map edge or port. You're either not looking or wilfully ignoring them.
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Robert Ellis
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I'm new to the game system, and thus still learning the rules. I understand the principles of trace supply, but, despite several read-throughs of the relevant sections, I'm really not clear about the distance over which a unit can trace in order to establish that it is in supply.

As an example; a 'leg' unit with a MA of 3 is in clear terrain, not within throw distance of an HQ or dump. There is a de-trainable rail hex 7 leg MP away. Is this a valid point to trace to?

I cannot find in the rules where it defines what this allowable distance is.
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ER Bickford
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Usually it is 5 (truck) MP's (even if it is a leg unit) and adjacent is close enough. The missing info is in 12.3a Direct Draw. (because that is what your unit is doing even though it is looking for trace supple and not an actual supply token.
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Robert Ellis
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Thank you - however, I'm still a little confused since that specifically refers to a dump, whereas I'm not able to trace to either a dump or HQ - just a point that will eventually lead to a valid source.
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