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Fields of Arle» Forums » Rules

Subject: Starting player token - a more subtle question than the usual. rss

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Kevin Rolph
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Firstly, thanks for all the 'Starting Player' answers here - it's the only way we made sense of the process. We play with both tokens, one each, to be explicitly clear that (say) 'A' is 'starting player in Summer', and 'B' is 'starting player in Winter'.

Now, my understanding of the penalty of taking a 'wrong season' action is that you lose your right to going first next season. Hold on to that point.

If 'A' is the starting player and 'B' picks a 'wrong season' action 'B' loses the first turn for next season, thus 'A' gains the right to go first next season. The tokens are exchanged.

Now, the question: If, during the same season, 'A' subsequently picks a 'wrong season' action, does 'A' lose the right to go first next season just gained by 'B's earlier action, i.e. do the starting tokens exchange back again?
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Dave Moser
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Kevingston wrote:
Now, the question: If, during the same season, 'A' subsequently picks a 'wrong season' action, does 'A' lose the right to go first next season just gained by 'B's earlier action, i.e. do the starting tokens exchange back again?

Not allowed. Only one "off-season" action can be taken per season.
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Kevin Rolph
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dmoser22 wrote:

Not allowed. Only one "off-season" action can be taken per season.

Ah - I'd read that rule as being 'per player' - that would solve my perceived ambiguity though. Thanks.
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Jonas Geiregat
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Kevingston wrote:

If 'A' is the starting player and 'B' picks a 'wrong season' action 'B' loses the first turn for next season, thus 'A' gains the right to go first next season. The tokens are exchanged.


Tokens ? In my version there is only one lighthouse starting player token ?
 
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Kevin Rolph
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eniac_g wrote:

Tokens ? In my version there is only one lighthouse starting player token ?


In mine I've a Summer lighthouse and a Winter one (with ice on it). However, the rules are written as if there's only the summer one. (English edition, purchased 2016). I'd be fascinated to know which design came first. We definitely prefer the two-token mechanism, much clearer IMHO.
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Dan Fielding
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There is a strategy point here.

If you are the starting player, then you have nothing to lose by "crossing over" into the other season.

So you can assure yourself of having the first choice (of the other season) by making it your first pick.
 
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JR
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Gronak wrote:
If you are the starting player, then you have nothing to lose by "crossing over" into the other season.


Well, there are lost opportunities. Skipping to the off-season means missing out on the first choice of the current season. You also lose the potential opportunity to go first again next season when you remove the option for the other player to surrender first player voluntarily by acting out of season.
 
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Dave Moser
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Gronak wrote:
There is a strategy point here.

If you are the starting player, then you have nothing to lose by "crossing over" into the other season.

That's not exactly true. What you lose is the potential of going first in the following season. As long as you stick to current-season actions, there is a chance that your opponent may decide to cross over, thereby giving you first spot for the next season. If you cross over first, that can no longer happen.

 
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Dan Fielding
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Only ONE player may "cross over." Not both players (which would cancel the shift of first player).
 
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Dan Fielding
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"What you lose is the potential of going first in the following season"

That is no loss at all. You cannot lose something which you cannot predict, or assign a probability to.
 
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JR
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Gronak wrote:
"What you lose is the potential of going first in the following season"

That is no loss at all. You cannot lose something which you cannot predict, or assign a probability to.


You can (and do, in the stated case) lose an opportunity. You really are something.
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Dan Fielding
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If I do not cross over, then I play second in the next season. Unless a random event occurs (the other player crosses over). You cannot place a value on a random event. Value requires both opportunity worth and probability of occurance. Random has an unknown %.

So the factual information is that that crossing over NOW yields the equivalent of playing first instead of second, which has a calculable worth.

If I do not cross over NOW, then it is possible I may not be able to use the space I desire. Either because the other player crosses over and uses it, or plays first and uses it. Neither of those has a known probability of occurrance.

So I can only evaluate the worth of the space I would use by crossing over NOW against the worth of non-crossover spaces. Minus some discount because the other player will certainly be taking some of the non-crossover spaces, and they could be the one(s) I want.
 
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