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Subject: weight of this game (complexity, not pounds) rss

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peter berger
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I am a little bit confused about the complexity rating.
On bgg it has a rating of 3.75 but the description says that it is easy to learn in about 15 minutes....that sound paradox to me.

can someone that already has a copy of that game (from spiel 2016) tell us their personal meaning of the complexity - thats would be great

i know there is a rulebook online, that seems to be complicated. But I am more interesting in personal experience of the owners.

how is the gamplay for solo players? should I buy this game when i play it mostly solitare? Is it fiddly or easy to manage?
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David Hladky
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You will not learn the game in 15 minutes. One hour for rules if you have someone, that knows the game. At least several missions to master.

3,75 is accurate imo. There are way more complicated games.
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Florian Stock
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panus wrote:
I am a little bit confused about the complexity rating.
On bgg it has a rating of 3.75 but the description says that it is easy to learn in about 15 minutes....that sound paradox to me.


But it isnt paradox. Take i.e. Go. The rules are so easy, you can explain them in a couple of minutes, but it still has a high complexity. Thats because of the fact, that knowing the rules of a game, give you no clue about the tactics/strategy in a game. Same with Chess: It just takes just a couple of minutes, to tell someone how to setup the board, and which move each of the 6 figures can do. So while you can really fast "learn" how to play the game, it doesnt mean that you have mastered it.

I actually havent received my copy (and couldnt attend Essen), but I know the rules. And just from the rule book I would guess 15 minutes is really short. But with someone explaining, and starting from the first scenario (where you dont have to care about high level stuff, and can omit it, and explain in later in the game when necessary), it would say it is doable.
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Rob ter Linden
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Basics are pretty easy to understand.
But it helps if someone knows the game.
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peter berger
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Quote:
But it isnt paradox. Take i.e. Go. The rules are so easy, you can explain them in a couple of minutes, but it still has a high complexity. Thats because of the fact, that knowing the rules of a game, give you no clue about the tactics/strategy in a game. Same with Chess: It just takes just a couple of minutes, to tell someone how to setup the board, and which move each of the 6 figures can do. So while you can really fast "learn" how to play the game, it doesnt mean that you have mastered it.


Thx for your info but you can't compare Go with such a game at all. Go IS explainable in 5 minutes because of its abstract content and it has just 5 rules and its absolute clear and brilliant by it self.

these games have a big narrative part and need 40+ pages of rulebooks. they need additional, differnet rules to make the gameplay work. But you can mostly read in previews that they are easy to understand, solo playable, short build up time etc...

And mostly this is simple not true, at least not in that way that its clever and fawless made.

i dont wanna write here some examples, but i think some disappointed backers know what i mean. I dont write about this game specific - (I dont know it in detail) - but the whole dungeon crawler division...
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David Hladky
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I think complexity is similar to the second edition of Descent. The basics are easy, but some work differently than what people expect. For example adjacency is not the same as range 1.

I think you can start playing your first game after one hour explanation. See the hero's rondel and the enemy one. In order to plan your actions properly you need to explain each of the actions at least. This is 30 minutes, not less. Then you have visibility rules, combat, treasures. And when it comes to special attack, such as AOE, you will definitely use the manual frequently.

The rules are not overcomplicated (such as Bolt Action for example), but it is still a dungeon crawler with gameplay based on positioning and interactions of figures.
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Tristan Brunet
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The basics of the game are rather simple (for a dungeoncrawl !), but they are quite different from other games in the genre (no dice, the central role of the rondel as an action matrix...).

Yet, I think the rules can be explained in 30 minutes (an hour seems a bit long to me).
 
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Chris Seidler
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panus wrote:
I am a little bit confused about the complexity rating.
On bgg it has a rating of 3.75 but the description says that it is easy to learn in about 15 minutes....that sound paradox to me.

can someone that already has a copy of that game (from spiel 2016) tell us their personal meaning of the complexity - thats would be great

i know there is a rulebook online, that seems to be complicated. But I am more interesting in personal experience of the owners.

how is the gamplay for solo players? should I buy this game when i play it mostly solitare? Is it fiddly or easy to manage?


I think you can explain the most part of the rules in 15 to 30 minutes to experienced players. Though it's a complex game, the mechanics are really easy to learn.

The most exceptions you can explain during play as soon as they occur.

As for solo players: I had no problem controlling four heroes by myself and it was much more smooth than in Descent 2E or Imperial Assualt, for example.

My only problem with this game is level 3A, standard version: Come on, Timo! This shall be standard? Till now I never came close to leaving the map, so many monsters in the last room! I never ever gonna try the hard version of this level! :-D :-D :-D

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Timo Multamäki
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Chrisback79 wrote:
panus wrote:
I am a little bit confused about the complexity rating.
On bgg it has a rating of 3.75 but the description says that it is easy to learn in about 15 minutes....that sound paradox to me.

can someone that already has a copy of that game (from spiel 2016) tell us their personal meaning of the complexity - thats would be great

i know there is a rulebook online, that seems to be complicated. But I am more interesting in personal experience of the owners.

how is the gamplay for solo players? should I buy this game when i play it mostly solitare? Is it fiddly or easy to manage?


I think you can explain the most part of the rules in 15 to 30 minutes to experienced players. Though it's a complex game, the mechanics are really easy to learn.

The most exceptions you can explain during play as soon as they occur.


I have explained the rules now slightly over a hundred times within 15 minutes in such a level that people can play. Most difficult is to explain that PM is lacking virtually all of the "usual rules" and does have some other mechanics (which are not too hard).

Sure, there are a few exceptions, but those are not important for the 1st level (1A) which I highly recommend everyone to begin with.

Quote:

As for solo players: I had no problem controlling four heroes by myself and it was much more smooth than in Descent 2E or Imperial Assualt, for example.

My only problem with this game is level 3A, standard version: Come on, Timo! This shall be standard? Till now I never came close to leaving the map, so many monsters in the last room! I never ever gonna try the hard version of this level! :-D :-D :-D


There needs to be some challenge, you know

But key for success in 3A is either heavy tanking at a place that you can defend and kill everything OR you run like hell (and then typically 6 players is not an advantage). Sure, there ARE other means to solve 3A, but those are both very obvious. I'll leave the rest for you to resolve, ok?
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Chris Seidler
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Thanks a lot, Timo! It's so much fun to find the right strategy in PM. What a fantastic and innovative design!

One question on the acolyte starting the level at the levers: Am I right when he uses the levers on his way to his exits by spending a movement point and opens the doors to my personal hell? :-D
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Timo Multamäki
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Chrisback79 wrote:
Thanks a lot, Timo! It's so much fun to find the right strategy in PM. What a fantastic and innovative design!

One question on the acolyte starting the level at the levers: Am I right when he uses the levers on his way to his exits by spending a movement point and opens the doors to my personal hell? :-D


Indeed. That is the case.
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Timo Multamäki
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Chrisback79 wrote:
Thanks a lot, Timo! It's so much fun to find the right strategy in PM. What a fantastic and innovative design!


Thanks. Every scenario has several possible (known to us) ways to reach the goal. You just need to consider what those are and I'm fully positive that you'll find many that we've never come to think of.

...and keep in mind that the flexible difficulty level is possible. If you find some scenarios too hard or easy, just see the optional rules section to tune difficulty to your liking.

When you play with all difficulty modifier AND the hard Response deck, that is very close to "Doom" in "Nightmare" level, but maybe I'm just bad Doom player (and no, I'm not referring to Doom the boardgame).
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Chris Seidler
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Thanks again! I really love the difficulty. For me it's a challenge to resolve the "puzzle" without adjusting the difficulty. It makes a win (and the win will come - just when, the question is :-D) even more sweet when you reach your goals after several negative trials.
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Timo Multamäki
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Chrisback79 wrote:
Thanks again! I really love the difficulty. For me it's a challenge to resolve the "puzzle" without adjusting the difficulty. It makes a win (and the win will come - just when, the question is :-D) even more sweet when you reach your goals after several negative trials.


Indeed. We tried to tune the difficulty in such a way that you don't manage without a few retries here and there. I think it would be boring if you'd always win.

Sure, 1A should be walk-in-a-park and even 2A is somewhat easy, but there are noticeable challenges ahead after that. Always keep in mind, though, that correct party composition is part of the puzzle. Using always the same composition makes the game considerably harder...
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Jalmari Ruokojärvi
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The basic mechanics can be pounded through in 15 minutes, no problem at all. Seen it done, and done it myself. Provided that the observer's attention span is long enough, that's well enough to start playing.

But based on empirical evidence, it's healthier to spend some 30 minutes and preferably more of extra to also teach the basics of smart and efficient coop play. That makes the difference between somebody almost flipping the table after learning (the hard way) that a lone Bastian just doesn't handle two Guards gracefully and three players highfiving after mopping the floor with two Guards and two Acolytes within the first 3 turns of a scenario.
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Sebastian Beck
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@ Timo:

It is great that you made the game hard. There is nothing more frustrating than winning a coop game on every first try.
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Timo Multamäki
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Beckikaze wrote:
@ Timo:

It is great that you made the game hard. There is nothing more frustrating than winning a coop game on every first try.


I fully agree.
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Sebastian
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i think you can explain the game in 15 mins.

because a normal player doesn´t need to know every rule to play, as long as there is a player that knows everything (spawning rules, enemy rule and so on)


the main problem here is that you expect a normal dungeon crawler and this game is totaly different.

i only played the first scenario, but it is obvious from the beginning.
there are moments where you stand with your tank infront of 2 mobs and you are used to just slash them on your turn, and then you realize that you can not attack because of how the action selection works. that could be strange or frustating to some players, but i like it!

i also thought that the game is complicated at first (40 page rules) but to be honest, i read through them and played the first game relative flawless (which almost never happend to me with such complex games)

so, if you want a dungeon crawl fantasy themed game, but you are tired of the "you have 3 actions on your turn and hit on a 3+" games than this is your game!

i really hope it sells well!!
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