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Flamme Rouge» Forums » Rules

Subject: Running out of cards ? rss

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James Sinden
United Kingdom
Twickenham
Middlesex
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Twice my sprinter has run out of cards before reaching the end...

Is this a sign we're playing this wrong (not for the first time ) or is this part of the design, and if so what happens next .

Thanks
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René Christensen
Denmark
Solroed Strand
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If you play a card higher than 5 going uphill, you will lose some point and that could be the reason why you run out of cards.
But are you playing on the official stages or are you making some yourself that could be too long?
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Michael Szymanski
Germany
Geestland
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The sprinter deck has 69 movement points and the track is at least 69 squares (depending on the starting square) so in theory it seems possible.
Anyway it looks unlikly because
- you need to waste movement points (playing a 9 on an ascent or beeing stuck)
- you are not using slipstream (free one square movement)
- you are not in the wind (draw no exhaustion card of value 2)

I suppose you missed the slipstreaming or picking up exhaustion card when in the wind.
Otherwise I would think that running out of cards should be a movement of 2 squares like an exhaustion card.
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Yani
Switzerland
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jamessinden wrote:
Twice my sprinter has run out of cards before reaching the end...

Is this a sign we're playing this wrong (not for the first time ) or is this part of the design, and if so what happens next .

Thanks


It is possible to run out of cards (69 MPs, while circuit is 68-72 MPs) but likely a sign of either freak luck or poor play. Your rouleur needs to usually try to protect or help slipstream your sprinteur, since his specialty is winning the game at Flamme Rouge.

You should probably get an exhaustion card when you spend your last move card, which means you have a card to play next turn, except if you are in a pack when this happens. Could happen I suppose. If this happened to me, I would call the sprinteur exhausted, and not play any card, except a possible future exhaustion card.
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James Sinden
United Kingdom
Twickenham
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If you start at the back of the grid, the track is longer, this combined with having to move back should the track be congested and hills that limit movement to 5 if you hit them too fast was the cause... I was about 6/7 places short at the end with no more cards.

It was on an official track... so I'm pretty sure this was not the issue.

Could entirely be down to poor play, although in this last race I didn't pickup any exhaustion cards on the track itself, which should (I feel) be seen as ok play ??

The race was won by another player on the same turn that I ran out of cards, so it didn't need a resolution in this case but I'm not sure the cyclist should just ground to a halt because he didnt get any exhaustion cards on the track., it should really be the oppositve as he has been able to conserve energy ?

I can't see anything in the rules to cover running out of cards so was looking to see what options people though would be themeatically valid ?

thanks

ps. none of the above is a criticism of the game. I've played twice since a friend picked it up at Essen and it's relaly good... Pretty sure I'll end up bagging a copy as well



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DominiGeek
Dominican Republic
Santo Domingo
D.N.
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jamessinden wrote:
Twice my sprinter has run out of cards before reaching the end...

Can you confirm that you didn´t miss adding an exhaustion card here or there?

Happening twice looks a bit surprising.

I would say that from there on the rider would only be allowed to advance 2 squares per turn until it finishes the race. But we´ll have to wait for an official ruling. Interesting.

Regards,
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Asger Harding Granerud
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Back from Essen one hour ago. My flight was cancelled so stuck in Düsseldorf

It is indeed possible to run out of energy cards. I've never seen it happen myself, but I have heard of it.

What happens in the rules is that you stop/crash. You've over extended yourself in the race, and have no resources left. Eventually you'll get exhaustion cards and can use those to limp across the finish line.

Happy racing
Asger Granerud
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Petr Míka
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It seems to be unthematic if gathering exhaustion cards can help you to prevent overextending and stopping/crashing in a race. whistle
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Miguel
France
Caen
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Pemik wrote:
It seems to be unthematic if gathering exhaustion cards can help you to prevent overextending and stopping/crashing in a race. whistle

That was the one thing I was wondering. So if you waste a lot of points you risk not reaching the finish line, as in Ave Caesar... but if you place yourself in the lead you add 2 point cards to your deck, that may help you to finish?

First time I heard about this exhaustion mechanism I though those cards 'replaced' others, but I understand that that would be too cumbersome to implement.
 
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Asger Harding Granerud
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Pemik wrote:
It seems to be unthematic if gathering exhaustion cards can help you to prevent overextending and stopping/crashing in a race. whistle


I agree. However it is a simple way to handle it inside the rules, without adding exceptions. Plus it is something I've only heard of, but never seen (300+ of my own games, and easily 200+ games I've seen played). And I only condone house rules!!!

Regards
Asger Granerud
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Petr Míka
Czech Republic
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Strictly speaking, this situation is an exception from the rules itself. It is really not covered what should you do if you have no cards. And I think that something like "If a rider has no cards, then he moves 2 squares" is not that much more complex than "If a rider has no cards, then doesn't move". Of course, if this situation is as rare as you say than the practical relevance of this discussion is pretty low.
Also, it is your design and you are the authority on the official rules.
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Benji
Switzerland
Gurmels
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Pemik wrote:
It seems to be unthematic if gathering exhaustion cards can help you to prevent overextending and stopping/crashing in a race. whistle


You think so? To me, there is a difference between becoming exhausted and just driving badly. If you stay in the pack (probably slipstreaming a few times) and you STILL run out of cards, you deserve a breakdown
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Asger Harding Granerud
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I can see the theme going both ways. But in a game where most other things seem to be something people are thematically happy with, I see why this may stick out.

It is a bad situation to be in anyway, and the only place I can see it matter is in a Grand Tour with time tracking. And even then it will only make an terrible situation, slightly less terrible. However if you're playing a Grand Tour chances are you've learned the game, and it won't matter.

Of course I might have missed something, and it may happen a lot more than I think... Keep me posted!

Regards
Asger Granerud
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Pierre VIAU
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My 2 cents on this.

Picking up exhaustion cards does not "help you finish", they only serve to reduce your choice of good cards when the final sprint starts. A simple and effective model in the context of this brilliant game. And if all you have in your hand at the end is a couple of 2-pts cards, there is no way you'll be challenging for the win...

Running out of cards can only be down to a freak sequence of bad choices. To optimize your energy conservation (and get slipstream), at some key moments you have to gamble a little, or rather second-guess what others might do around you. This can go wrong... After a few plays though, you will stop making too many risky plays.

What to do if it still happens ? I'm in favour of crashing (not finishing) rather limping in at a default 2-speed.

It only matters if you're playing a tour, and you can do what they do in real life for some stages: define a maximum time delay for the last rider (versus the winner's time). If you don't finish, you get that max delay added to your time.

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Daniele Silvi
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It happened to me twice in three games, so it seems to be more frequent than expected. I suggest to give the opportunity to everyone to draw a 2 card every turn...
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James Sinden
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Twickenham
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Just to add a few more specific details on this scenario... i don't have the game to check, but in the 2nd race my rider started at the back of a 4 player game.. so the track was already 2 spaces longer.

Also at the base of one of the mountains I lost 2 more spaces due to the track being congested.

I don't recall getting any slip stream during the game, but I suspect I was also blocked a few more times on a congested track.

Personally I would not say this was bad play. Maybe conservative, but there were no dumb moves in there just some bad luck on the congested track in front of me.

I'm guessing in a 2 or 3 player game this is less likely to happen but congestion in a 4 player game is pretty common (in the games I've played so far) especially at the base of an uphill slopes.

On the thematic front, I'm not sure it really works that a rider who didn't hit any exhaustion should be penalised. It's a hallmark of a good, if conservative, race... I would settle for 2nd place

..and just to restate, this is still a great game... the best cycling simulation I've played... just trying to determine how best to manage this situation !

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Pierre VIAU
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@James until now I have always put my Sprinter as far to the front as I'm allowed during setup.

Not because I was worried about track length, but simply because I wanted to start with the lowest cards in my hand for the 1st 2 rounds.

Now it looks like I have a second reason to do this...
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Mark McGee
United States
Cary
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jamessinden wrote:

On the thematic front, I'm not sure it really works that a rider who didn't hit any exhaustion should be penalised. It's a hallmark of a good, if conservative, race... I would settle for 2nd place


My impression is that thematically, rather than being penalized for not gaining exhaustion, you're being penalized for not slip-streaming. You have run out of energy entirely because you used it all instead of drafting off of other riders.
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Teik Chooi Oh
United Kingdom
Chorley
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Our first game (3 of us, with owner who played 2 other non-hill games). One player ran out of card if there were 1 more turn. However if one more turn (could easily happen as winner only finished by one square anyway.

Agree seems unthematic to reward those who gain penalty cards for leading a pack to be able to continue longer in a race. Matters more if playing a campaign game where every ending position matters.
 
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Richard Dewsbery
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Sutton Coldfield
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It's only likely to happen to a sprinter. I guess that he just punctured/fell on the final bend. It happens. Next time work on giving him a proper lead out in the last few turns and it shouldn't happen. But Nancy around at the back, being conservative all the time (and not taking your turn in the wind), well, you can hardly complain when the other riders gleefully put the hammer down when you slip your chain on the last k.
 
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Teik Chooi Oh
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Chorley
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Not complaining but bit surprising to hear that over 200 test games and it never or rarely happened! Love the game and have no problems with result.simulating sprinter being knackered or falling over.
 
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Asger Harding Granerud
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My guess is it won't happen to you again either.

Asger
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Pee di Moor
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Rotterdam
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I played a solo "Classicisma" today, and both sprinters in the opponents team ran out of cards (about 8 spaces away from the finish line).

(Maybe needless to say, but) the opponents rouleurs finished 1 and 2, while I ended up with loads of exhaustion cards.

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Mathieu
France
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My thought is that, if a rider has no cards any more, he doesn't move any more.

> if it is a lone race, it has no impact, it won't win the game, even with exhaustion cards.
> if you're playing a Grand Tour, you calculate the gap with the finish lane and convert it in time. (As I never did Grand Tour, I don't know if riders continue to play after the first ones crossed the line, so my thought may be irrelevant).


EDIT: Correction: if he has no card, he plays no card. Then he probably won't be in a group and will pick an exhaustion card that he plays the next round, etc...
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Frederik
Belgium
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We discussed this during our games last night.
When you play your last card:

- if you're leading/alone, you get an exhaustion card so you can continue the race.

- if you can slipstream/are in pack, you don't get an exhaustion card and thus are out of the game.

Fairly odd/unthematic?
 
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