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Subject: Optional Buy Overkill? rss

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Is anyone else feeling like there's too many optional buys already?

You want to toss in a few extras for free fine, but to keep revealing more and more optional buys feels a little like a scam.

I get that they aren't necessary, yet, instead of an expansion's amount of extras, I'd really rather see the core game get attention.
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Andi Kasper
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Same as any other KS with minis IMHO.
This has nothing to do with a scam. Nobody forces you to buy anything. Take it or leave it.
Judging by the amount of free minis I really don't get what kind of "attention" you are talking about.

Just my 2 cents
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Inexperience or scam, it doesn't make a difference.

Main risk of optional buys is that the money paid for the optional buy doesn't cover the cost of making it. For example, if the steel mold for a plastic miniature costs 10K and backers pay only 5K towards it, the add-on loses money. This is their first KS, and there's an art to revealing add-ons. You add them only when you need to keep the funding momentum going, and, as you're suggesting, you can't overwhelm your backers with add-ons. I should mention that Diemension Games had a promotion on Facebook, where you got a free Epic miniature if you did such-and-such during the promotion period and pledged. So that's why they're showing the Epic monsters. They *are* smart by providing multiples of a figure. That means they can reuse the steel mold and spread its cost among more miniatures. KS always has risk that retail doesn't. In return, the price of the game is lower. If you pass on this KS and it succeeds, that just means you'll have more confidence in the company when they run their next KS, which may (or may not) be as generous as this one.
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My 2 cents too:

A fair amount of backers who are attracted by minis boardgames are completionists.
These kinds of campaigns are calibered, taking this info into account.
Let's be honest.

"Same as any other KS with minis IMHO."
Exactly. On purpose. Because they know their target.

Tell a completionist from the start that the full thing will eventually cost him 200 dollars and he's out.

But tease him with a 90 dollars game for a while and when he's hooked, add the extras, one by one and he will eventually pay those 200 dollars.

"Nobody forces you to buy anything".
That's true. But there's a catch.
There are techniques to make you buy everything. And this method of incremental releases is part of them.

If not, why release add-ons little by little?

So, yes, I agree with the OP.
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Kirk Nelson
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Sadly, I own a calculator.

The more add-ons one of these project has the less attractive I start to find it. This is due to the "compeltionist" mind set mentioned earlier. Slowly I see the ability to get everything slipping away.

The game looks great and I am backing it but seeing all these cool "extras" makes it difficult to decide. I am getting flashbacks of childhood in a candy store.
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andlord wrote:
Same as any other KS with minis IMHO.
This has nothing to do with a scam. Nobody forces you to buy anything. Take it or leave it.
Judging by the amount of free minis I really don't get what kind of "attention" you are talking about.

Just my 2 cents


There is a very real danger to what they are doing.

As noted in another post here, the designers/publishers are new to the business. They have admitted this. They state they are 'learning' from other companies, like CMON, etc.

As someone who has backed their fair share of KS projects, I can tell you that other KS project creators would agree with me that the trouble with providing so many optional buys is twofold:

First, each mini has a minimum cost associated with it's creation (I've seen it range from $5,000-$10,000). From sculpting, to creating molds, to production. So with so many people backing the base game, the costs end up being low for it's creation.

Not so with the optional buys. You need X amount of people to back EACH optional buy so that they pay for themselves. Since very few backers will go all-in (especially for a first-time KS project), that means what optional buys are picked up will be spread around. This will increase costs where money needs to be re-allocated. It complicates something that needs to be made easier.

Second, fulfillment. With so many different variations on a single KS pledge, fulfillment (putting the correct items in a box), is going to be very difficult. When you put the wrong item in one box (free stuff), but don't in another (who paid for it), you spend time and money sending out replacements.

These are all things that even experienced KS creators struggle with.

Jorune
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andlord wrote:
Same as any other KS with minis IMHO.
This has nothing to do with a scam. Nobody forces you to buy anything. Take it or leave it.
Judging by the amount of free minis I really don't get what kind of "attention" you are talking about.

Just my 2 cents


Fair enough. I wasn't clear. And I'm not interested in spinning rumors, but I have been reading people's concerns with editing, translating, rulebook, etc. That was what I meant when I was saying I want the core game to get attention.

I would rather have a great game with (brain fart edit here) just a core box than an okay game with a core box and tons of extras (that I'll never play because it just didn't get the attention that it should have).
 
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Carl Enns
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Jorune wrote:
andlord wrote:
Same as any other KS with minis IMHO.
This has nothing to do with a scam. Nobody forces you to buy anything. Take it or leave it.
Judging by the amount of free minis I really don't get what kind of "attention" you are talking about.

Just my 2 cents


There is a very real danger to what they are doing.

As noted in another post here, the designers/publishers are new to the business. They have admitted this. They state they are 'learning' from other companies, like CMON, etc.

As someone who has backed their fair share of KS projects, I can tell you that other KS project creators would agree with me that the trouble with providing so many optional buys is twofold:

First, each mini has a minimum cost associated with it's creation (I've seen it range from $5,000-$10,000). From sculpting, to creating molds, to production. So with so many people backing the base game, the costs end up being low for it's creation.

Not so with the optional buys. You need X amount of people to back EACH optional buy so that they pay for themselves. Since very few backers will go all-in (especially for a first-time KS project), that means what optional buys are picked up will be spread around. This will increase costs where money needs to be re-allocated. It complicates something that needs to be made easier.

Second, fulfillment. With so many different variations on a single KS pledge, fulfillment (putting the correct items in a box), is going to be very difficult. When you put the wrong item in one box (free stuff), but don't in another (who paid for it), you spend time and money sending out replacements.

These are all things that even experienced KS creators struggle with.



Jorune


Have you ever considered that not every company is the same. Maybe they are self funding their molds or they are just using KSTARTER as a preorder system to know how many copies they wish to print. They already intend on making all of these add on. Maybe this creator has $2,000,000 in the bank. There are many unknowns here that nobody knows. Now, if you're basing your assumptions on the idea that every mini company uses kick starter to pay for mini molds and you base your purchasing using this model to measure your risk that is fine. Consider though that this assumption may be incorrect. Just because a creator may claim it is their truth, this isn't necessarily so either.
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Andi Kasper
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Ah now I get what you mean. Totally agree on that. Even for me(non-english person) the wording feels strange and a lot of typos in there aswell.
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Well, I'm interested and I've got one of the EB levels.

As the campaign progresses, I'll build a spreadsheet showing (a) what you get for free, (b) what's extra, and (c) what, of the extras and stretch goals, are exclusive.

At the end, I'll probably tally up exclusive extras versus extras purchasable after the campaign ends, and decide if I'm still interested or not.

And, you know, if I'm still interested in gameplay and theme. Because God knows I've got enough minis-focused games on the way.

So, yes, I agree all these addons are risky. Because if they go too deep into that, it's going to make me drop my pledge. My days of going in $500.00 on a minis game because I gotta have it all are long, long gone.
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Jerry
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Desferous wrote:
Is anyone else feeling like there's too many optional buys already?

You want to toss in a few extras for free fine, but to keep revealing more and more optional buys feels a little like a scam.


Not a scam but yes, too much for me. I've already backed too many that were too much for me but those ones spoke to me. This one does not so its not worth the large and climbing bill that will be due just to hope I like it. So, I'll be dropping my EB before the end. Watch for it

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ian short
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They've already mentioned that they will have a bundle for the 5 epic monsters, so I consider that one optional buy. There is the expansion and another deep one expansion o be revealed. Every bit of game play content will come to $250 unless they have more big surprises.
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Brian C
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mulletcheese wrote:
They've already mentioned that they will have a bundle for the 5 epic monsters, so I consider that one optional buy. There is the expansion and another deep one expansion o be revealed. Every bit of game play content will come to $250 unless they have more big surprises.

Bundles would ease the pain for me.

My main problem lies with the exclusive addons. The rest I can take my chances on and buy later at retail, if I'm unsure if I'll like the game.

Exclusive [gameplay] addons feed into FOMO, and just feel dirty.
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Ryan
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Regarding the typos and grammar, this is a quote from Dimension Games:

"There have been concerns about the writing in our game and in the KS updates. Your feedback is very important to us. Please rest assured we are doing everything to ensure the quality of our game. All texts in the final game will be professionally written and edited. We are editing all the KS updates at the moment. As a young company, we truly appreciate your patience and generous support."

A previous post also mentioned professional editors.
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ian short
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Exo Desta wrote:
mulletcheese wrote:
They've already mentioned that they will have a bundle for the 5 epic monsters, so I consider that one optional buy. There is the expansion and another deep one expansion o be revealed. Every bit of game play content will come to $250 unless they have more big surprises.

Bundles would ease the pain for me.

My main problem lies with the exclusive addons. The rest I can take my chances on and buy later at retail, if I'm unsure if I'll like the game.

Exclusive [gameplay] addons feed into FOMO, and just feel dirty.


Only one of the epic monsters is exclusive and if you shared the Facebook post in September you can get it for free. The only other exclusive add on is the investigator that comes in the expansion. It's not too bad at the moment but I do expect a few more of them to appear.
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andlord wrote:
Same as any other KS with minis IMHO.
This has nothing to do with a scam. Nobody forces you to buy anything. Take it or leave it.
Judging by the amount of free minis I really don't get what kind of "attention" you are talking about.

Just my 2 cents



THIS EXACTLY.

my 2 cents as well, thats 4c all up, lets get this jar filled
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Guys, you're all way too serious!!
You want the game you buy the game! That's it!
Me, well I see an amazing game with a great genre. I'm in all the way. Add more add-one please! Add more stretch goals! Add more KS exclusives!
My 10 cents...
 
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R.P. Kraul
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Diemension simply went to the CMON school of kickstarter--lot of exclusives and optional buys, designed to exploit FOMO.
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DeanWarrington wrote:
You want the game you buy the game! That's it!


If KS were a store, that would be the case. You see the game available at your FLGS or OLGS, pay for the game, and either take it home with you, or wait for the courier to leave it at your doorstep. Except KS is not a store. With KS, a creator gives you the pitch for you to fund their project. The project may deliver what the creator promises -- or not. The "or not" part is the problem. Maybe you haven't experienced a KS that failed to deliver what they promised, or did not deliver anything at all. I've only lost $25 on KS, from a First Created project. But others have pledged hundreds of dollars with nothing to show.

*That* is why some of us take this seriously. *We* don't want to pledge $100+ for a product, only to have it fail to meet promised expectations, or not have it deliver anything to us at all.
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John Silveira
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What's FOMO?
 
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Jaisyl wrote:
What's FOMO?


Fear of Missing Out. For KS projects, it means you're pledging for the exclusives because you'd otherwise be paying eBay prices for them after the KS is over. I guess it's the safer way of saying OCD. KS preys on FOMO, as do CCGs, so the sooner you get over the need to collect everything, the safer you and your wallet will be on KS. I'm a min/max'er, myself, so usually stick to the core pledge, for the most content for the gaming dollar.
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Getting a bundle of the 4 or 5 epic monsters doesn't mean it will be that much cheaper. If they are at 18$ here, it will obviously cost more in retail, and a bundle of them would most likely round up back to the kickstarter price, or maybe a bit less. Would you get a bundle of 4 or 5 big size minis for 60+$ I definitely wouldn't. Moreover, we already have 3 epics in the base game, +1 epic coming in a stretch goal.
Personally, I'll probably get 1, or maybe 2 of the epic monster add-ons, and that's it.
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DeanWarrington wrote:
[...]
My 10 cents...


More like my $216 (as of now), excluding extra dice / tower / bags etc...
 
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As far as I'm concerned there are only 5 add-ons at the moment: 1 Expansion and 4 Mini-Bosses, which I feel is a very reasonable amount. Of the other accessories, I'll probably get some extra dice.

Haven't decided if I'll get the expansion during the Kickstarter but I'm sure I'll pick up at least one Epic Monster.

Personally I'd love to see some more add-ons, as long as they're not necessary to enjoy the game. If you're concerned about spending too much right away then just ignore anything that's not Kickstarter Exclusive content.
 
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Ks campaign for games with minis love to put some KS exclusive inside expansions add-ons.
 
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