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Subject: Something missing in the rules (awarding places) rss

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Hardy
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I think there is a gap in the rules: The rules only say who is the winner of the game, but they don't say a word about how further places are awarded.

(Strictly speaking, rules don't even say who is the winner if two cyclist finish on the same space. I assume, though, that the one on the right is supposed to be be declared winner, as this is the way turn oder is resolved. Yet the rules only the say "the furthest" wins, which would mean a tie.)

Rules suggest, that there is only a winner and no 2nd, 3rd place etc. assigned, but this seems very weird and would be contradicting the theme.

Basically there are two options:

1. (realistic, fitting theme):
The players who have not finished in the same round as the winner, will continue the race, until they also have moved past the finish line.

2. (streamlined, shortening game length)
After the round in which the first cyclist finishes, the game ends and places are awarded according to the position on the track (even for those who have not reached the finish line yet.)
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DominiGeek
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actaion wrote:

2. (streamlined, shortening game length)
After the round in which the first cyclist finishes, the game ends and places are awarded according to the position on the track (even for those who have not reached the finish line yet.)


If one of your riders gets too far behind, your only chance to win is with your other rider. If a rules states that the position of both riders matter; this player is doomed.

It might be more thematic, but will it be more fun? I don't know.
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Benji
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The goal of the base game is to be the first to cross the finish line (or have the most advanced rider if several players did). Nobody really cares about the other places in a single race...

If you want more detail, have a look at the "Grand Tour Rules" (by the designer) here in the file section. They award points for the first three riders and register the overall standings by measuring the times for each individual rider over several races.
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Asger Harding Granerud
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If the tiebreak isn't explained, then that is an unfortunate omission! You're correct though, right side of the road wins.

Cycling is a funny sport, in that there are multiple agendas. Some teams may be aiming for top 3, and be VERY happy to achieve it. Others want to win 1st and 2nd. These agendas all depend on the teams participating, and thus in Flamme Rouge it depends on the players. There is only one winner of a cycling race, what you do from there is up to your preference. I know this fits better with cycling, than with gamers

What we do:
We always finish the race until we have a top 3 as a minimum. You have to cross the finish line, to finish.

Let me know if there are further questions

Happy racing
Asger Granerud
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René Christensen
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To finish first, first you have to finish!
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Hardy
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Benji68 wrote:
The goal of the base game is to be the first to cross the finish line (or have the most advanced rider if several players did). Nobody really cares about the other places in a single race...


I disagree, and I think most everbody doing any kind of races will.
I watched a lot of races, cycling, running, horses, cars, dogs etc, high international level on tv (olympics e.g.) or low level local events.
I never ever saw this happening in any race :
The first athlete crosses the finish line to win the race, then immediately after that all other racers on the track stop running (driving, cycling etc.) and leave the track because further places don't matter.
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Hardy
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AsgerSG wrote:

We always finish the race until we have a top 3 as a minimum. You have to cross the finish line, to finish


Thanks for the quick response and clarification.
Imho that should be in the rules, too. Of course people can decide for their own way to play it, but some people like to play according to "original rules" and will search in them for sth. which can't be found.
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Benji
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actaion wrote:
Benji68 wrote:
The goal of the base game is to be the first to cross the finish line (or have the most advanced rider if several players did). Nobody really cares about the other places in a single race...


I disagree, and I think most everbody doing any kind of races will.
I watched a lot of races, cycling, running, horses, cars, dogs etc, high international level on tv (olympics e.g.) or low level local events.
I never ever saw this happening in any race :
The first athlete crosses the finish line to win the race, then immediately after that all other racers on the track stop running (driving, cycling etc.) and leave the track because further places don't matter.


There is a difference between "real life" and board games. Of course people care about results in real life. But do you really care about who came in second or third in a boardgame??

I also wrote that there are options already available to make placement matter from race to race in Flamme Rouge. It seems you have overlooked it.
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Hardy
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Benji68 wrote:

There is a difference between "real life" and board games. Of course people care about results in real life. But do you really care about who came in second or third in a boardgame??


Of course I do care. Why not? What is the difference?
A sport event is not "real life" either (at least not if it's an amateur event). It's a competition with some made-up rules, so to say, a "game". That's why its called e.g. "Olympic Games".
A sports competition is a kind of game, and a board game is a kind of competition.
Unless maybe it's a party fun game, where it's not all about about winning, but then I wouldn't care about the winner either.
But caring about the 1st place but not at all about 2nd and 3rd place is kind of paradoxical.


Benji68 wrote:

I also wrote that there are options already available to make placement matter from race to race in Flamme Rouge. It seems you have overlooked it.


That's not in the rulebook, only a variant available online. And even there there is no rule explaining how to award 2nd and 3rd place, it's just mentioned that you have to do it, but not explained how. So my question was eligible.
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Asger Harding Granerud
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actaion wrote:
AsgerSG wrote:

We always finish the race until we have a top 3 as a minimum. You have to cross the finish line, to finish


Thanks for the quick response and clarification.
Imho that should be in the rules, too. Of course people can decide for their own way to play it, but some people like to play according to "original rules" and will search in them for sth. which can't be found.


The disadvantage of adding 'original rules' on the other hand, is that some people wont do the soul searching on what THEY prefer. Not convinced that is better or worse, either way

But the point is noted, and I'll add it to the list of considerations for updates if we ever get there and it is feasible to change!

Happy racing
Asger Granerud
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Benji
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actaion wrote:

Of course I do care. Why not? What is the difference?


Really? You mean apart from the fact that in "real life sports" people practice and train for hours and hours before they even have a slightest chance of being noticed in rankings? Or that they set their own goals and do their best to get better and better, and that because of that, their efforts deserve being aknowledged? You really want to compare this to a second place in a 30 minute boardgame? I really do see a difference between true achievements (professional or not) and pastime.

But just play as you like.
 
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David desJardins
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Benji68 wrote:
There is a difference between "real life" and board games. Of course people care about results in real life. But do you really care about who came in second or third in a boardgame??


Surely you must care too. Otherwise you would start playing completely at random when you know you can't win. Or just walk away from the table. The fact that you keep playing even when you know it's impossible for you to win, and still try to make better moves rather than worse moves, means you must care about things other than winning, to some extent.
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Benji
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DaviddesJ wrote:
Benji68 wrote:
There is a difference between "real life" and board games. Of course people care about results in real life. But do you really care about who came in second or third in a boardgame??


Surely you must care too. Otherwise you would start playing completely at random when you know you can't win. Or just walk away from the table. The fact that you keep playing even when you know it's impossible for you to win, and still try to make better moves rather than worse moves, means you must care about things other than winning, to some extent.


Of course i care. About the people around the table. About our mutual experience during the game. Not so much about the consequences of the game, because there are none. Of course i try to win (and usually fail). And i will do my best to have a chance at winning as long as there is one. And i wont "throw" a game, because this ruins the game for everyone else. In other words, i care for the duration of the game, but aftewards, i judge the experience, not the players rankings.

And you know what's funny? I actually can't wait to play a Grand Tour - not because being first or second would mean more, but because it would prolong the experience of the game and give the stages a meta level for cooperations and deceptions that last for the duration of the Tour.
 
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David desJardins
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Benji68 wrote:
Of course i care. About the people around the table. About our mutual experience during the game. Not so much about the consequences of the game, because there are none.


That's of course true, but it applies just as much to winning as to finishing third. Neither has any real consequences. It doesn't support your argument that winning is critical but nothing else makes any difference at all.
 
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Benji
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I never said winning was critical. I said nobody cared about places further behind. That says nothing about the importance of the first place. Playing a game is like a contract. We agree to follow the rules, and part of the rules is trying to win. Without that, the game would break and be no fun. The condition of winning as a goal is a pre-requisite to having fun with the game, which (to me) is the ultimate goal.

Yes, i care more about other peoples experience than i care about winning. Does that make me a bad person?

But let's give back the stage to Flamme Rouge - did i mention that the game was wonderful and everybody is allowed to count points as they like, even without everything spelled out in the rulebook?

 
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David desJardins
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Benji68 wrote:
Playing a game is like a contract. We agree to follow the rules, and part of the rules is trying to win.


Another part of the rules/contract is to try to play well and finish as well as you can, even if you can't win. No one enjoys the game if the player who can't win quits, or starts playing randomly, or picks his best friend and decides to actively help that player, etc. That's why secondary objectives are important too.
 
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Benji
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DaviddesJ wrote:
Benji68 wrote:
Playing a game is like a contract. We agree to follow the rules, and part of the rules is trying to win.


Another part of the rules/contract is to try to play well and finish as well as you can, even if you can't win. No one enjoys the game if the player who can't win quits, or starts playing randomly, or picks his best friend and decides to actively help that player, etc. That's why secondary objectives are important too.


See above. And then above again.
 
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Asger Harding Granerud
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As long as the game itself is fun, and I hope this is why you're even participating here, then the details of 2nd/3rd/8th can be left for you to figure out

Asger
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Richard Dewsbery
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I'm with Cav on this issue. And, I suspect, quite a lot of US sportsmen. Nobody remembers who came second. It's all about who crosses the line first. Second is an irrelevance - it just means that you weren't playing well enough to take first.
 
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RDewsbery wrote:
I'm with Cav on this issue. And, I suspect, quite a lot of US sportsmen. Nobody remembers who came second. It's all about who crosses the line first. Second is an irrelevance - it just means that you weren't playing well enough to take first.


This is just plain wrong for cycling. No one watches single stage races and most don't remember who won each stage in a Tour. It's the overall winner of the Yellow Jersey that everyone remembers. But then I don't care that I came in 2nd, 3rd, 4th, whatever exactly. Instead, I care what my time gap was from the 1st place finisher.
 
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john newman
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Some teams are racing for overall and some are racing for stage wins. I think everyone remembers Lars Boom won the 5th stage of the Tour in 2014. This year Ulissi won 2 and Greipel won three stages of the Giro. Everyone knows the Vav Avermaet won a stage of the Tour and kept the yellow Jersey two days and that Sagan won three stages.

Yes, 2nd and thirds might be forgotten, and stages are not as memorable as overall victory, but stages matter too!
 
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Richard Dewsbery
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Ryan Keane wrote:
RDewsbery wrote:
I'm with Cav on this issue. And, I suspect, quite a lot of US sportsmen. Nobody remembers who came second. It's all about who crosses the line first. Second is an irrelevance - it just means that you weren't playing well enough to take first.


This is just plain wrong for cycling. No one watches single stage races and most don't remember who won each stage in a Tour. It's the overall winner of the Yellow Jersey that everyone remembers. But then I don't care that I came in 2nd, 3rd, 4th, whatever exactly. Instead, I care what my time gap was from the 1st place finisher.


Cav's counting every single stage. So is Greipel. Kittel. Sagan.

The yellow jersey might well be the most important contest in a three-week long grand tour, but if you ride for the twelve or thirteen teams that have no realistic hope of taking a top GC position stage wins become pretty important.

Stage wins also seem to be where the passion is; did Contador ever punch the air after taking five seconds on a rival on stage eight? Course not. But watch Cav, Sagan and Kittel duke it out in the last 100 meters - that's commitment, energy and drive. And you can see how half of them mentally sit up in those same meters when they realise that first place is out of reach. One-day classics follow a similar pattern.

And ultimately FR isn't a simulation of a grand tour, with GC contenders - it's a single stage, or a one day classic. And nobody ever cares or remembers who came second.

Except of course that no one watches single stage races. Paris-Roubaix, Milan-San Remo, the Tour of Flanders, Liege-Bastogn-Liege - these are all noted GC battles, spanning a week or more. It's just that they only televise the Saturday or Sunday part.

I suspect that you've been watching cycling from one particular viewpoint (maybe that of a certain Texan who thought that cycling was about just one race - and ultimately just one man. And a van load of pharmaceuticals, unfortunately). For everyone else, cycling's a broad church. And Flamme Rouge works very well as both a game and a model of the single stages and one-day races that many cyclists devote their careers to.
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Ryan Keane
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I didn't mean that winning a single stage doesn't matter, especially to the cyclists and teams where that's the goal rather than winning a tour. It is true I just don't have easy access to watch all the other races and thus have a very narrow Tour de France-centric viewpoint. But even in a game simulating cycling, I think it is thematic to try to come in the best place and time you can, even if the winner has already been determined.

I'm enjoying Flamme Rouge (only played a few games so far), and it does seem to simulate a more exciting finish than Leader 1, where often the race ends with everybody totally tapped out and crawling across the line on free spaces (although it's awesome when someone was more careful and speeds away with a big paid space move to cross the finish). Although it can feel much more lucky than Leader 1. It's more about limiting exhaustion and saving 1 big card for the final turn rather than just saving energy overall. In our last FR game, the winner I think had a deck of seven 2's and one 9 - drew two 2's, shuffled and then drew the 9 for the win!

But a few nights ago, I played a solo 2-team game of Tour Cycle Free: mid-race, both teams had cyclists in the lead group, and the one with more riders for their lead-out team took the sprint points, but then on the last turn, when that same team was set up in the lead group to provide a lead-out for the sprint win, a lone cyclist from the other team who had just previously raced across the 4' gap from the peloton to the lead group still had enough energy to go a higher speed on the last turn and break away from the lead group and clinch the win!
 
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Richard Dewsbery
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I've yet to play a game of Flamme Rouge in which the winner had already been determined but playing for second/third place would have made a difference to everyone's fun.

You might be out of contention in the very last round; you might have a rider who is out of contention as early as halfway through the stage, but I haven't played a game where the winner was determined any earlier than that and it became pointless playing the game out. Until the last round there is *always* a point to playing for the win - that sprinter out front may well have two nines left in his deck, but maybe he'll draw a hand of all 2s and the pack will blow right past him.

I would argue that aiming for second or third might well be more destructive of the gameplay than there being any risk of king making by someone who feels that they're not in the race anymore.
 
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