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Subject: When moving workers "elsewhere" rss

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Stephen Sanders
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My interpretation from the rulebook is that these workers being moved from a losing bid(s) must find a new tile location other than the tile it is(they are) located.

The question that came up is could these workers from a losing bid(s) move to the Production location of the same tile(s) where (one of) the losing worker bidders are currently located? So, could losing worker bidder on tile A join with losing worker bidder B (of same color) on tile B's production location? Is that considered moving "elsewhere?"

I've found all of the rules questions that I've had answered in this forum - this one question only I haven't seen but I would play it the way my interpretation is stated above, and would like input from others so I can nail this down for other players. Great game!

Thanks!
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Jason
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You could do that. You could also supplement that losing bid with keyples from behind your screen to form a new bid elsewhere (or activate a tile elsewhere with or without supplements).
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Stephen Sanders
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oilerfan wrote:
You could do that. You could also supplement that losing bid with keyples from behind your screen to form a new bid elsewhere (or activate a tile elsewhere with or without supplements).


Thanks for the reply Jason, but I didn't expect that it would be allowed to make such a move, as in my above example. The reason I interpret it that way is that I believe the rule is stating that "If workers are outbid, they can be moved [to a tile] elsewhere..." I supplied the words in brackets from the rulebook.
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Derry Salewski
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caltexn wrote:
oilerfan wrote:
You could do that. You could also supplement that losing bid with keyples from behind your screen to form a new bid elsewhere (or activate a tile elsewhere with or without supplements).


Thanks for the reply Jason, but I didn't expect that it would be allowed to make such a move, as in my above example. The reason I interpret it that way is that I believe the rule is stating that "If workers are outbid, they can be moved [to a tile] elsewhere..." I supplied the words in brackets from the rulebook.


You're reading too much into the rules. (Which, uh, happens when you add your own words to them )

Your outbid workers may go bid somewhere else. They may activate a tile (any tile, even the one you're bidding on.) They may be used as part of an exchange going back into the back. They can stay where they are and go back to your screen at the end of the season.
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Murr Rockstroh
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caltexn wrote:
My interpretation from the rulebook is that these workers being moved from a losing bid(s) must find a new tile location other than the tile it is(they are) located.


The rule doesn't say they must be moved elsewhere, it says they "can be moved elsewhere." This simply means they're not stuck where they are if you're outbid. You're not forced to bid higher with them. You can, if you want, move them somewhere else to make them useful to you. What that part of the rule is conveying is that if you do move them, you have to keep them together, you cannot split them up. And if you choose to leave them there as a losing bid, at the end of the bid phase, you'll simply put them back behind your screen.

From the rules:
5. If workers are outbid, they can be moved elsewhere (including to other bids, to production on village tiles, or to the bag as part of an exchange) but must remain together. When moving outbid workers, a player may supplement these workers with other losing workers or with workers from behind their screens. Workers cannot be moved back behind a player's screen.

The rest of the post below really doesn't need to be asked since your initial interpretation of the rule wasn't correct.

caltexn wrote:
The question that came up is could these workers from a losing bid(s) move to the Production location of the same tile(s) where (one of) the losing worker bidders are currently located? So, could losing worker bidder on tile A join with losing worker bidder B (of same color) on tile B's production location? Is that considered moving "elsewhere?"

I've found all of the rules questions that I've had answered in this forum - this one question only I haven't seen but I would play it the way my interpretation is stated above, and would like input from others so I can nail this down for other players. Great game!

Thanks!


Hope this helps.
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Stephen Sanders
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scifiantihero wrote:
caltexn wrote:
oilerfan wrote:
You could do that. You could also supplement that losing bid with keyples from behind your screen to form a new bid elsewhere (or activate a tile elsewhere with or without supplements).


Thanks for the reply Jason, but I didn't expect that it would be allowed to make such a move, as in my above example. The reason I interpret it that way is that I believe the rule is stating that "If workers are outbid, they can be moved [to a tile] elsewhere..." I supplied the words in brackets from the rulebook.


You're reading too much into the rules. (Which, uh, happens when you add your own words to them )

Your outbid workers may go bid somewhere else. They may activate a tile (any tile, even the one you're bidding on.) They may be used as part of an exchange going back into the back. They can stay where they are and go back to your screen at the end of the season.


Thanks for the reply Derry, but I'm not reading too much into the rules, but trying to understand what the rulebook doesn't say, since there could be two different interpretations of where "elsewhere" means. That is, does it mean to a different tile, or can it also mean the same tile, i.e. from a bid placement to a production placement on the same tile. No one has given a definitive answer to that, but to say I'm reading too much into the rules.

I understand the rest of the rulebook instruction on the use of these workers that are moved from low bids. That is clear. I just would like a more authoritative answer to whether moving them "elsewhere" means you can actually consider the same tile where they are deployed as bidders to make them producers on that same tile is still moving them "elsewhere", or as you even say, "somewhere else."
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Derry Salewski
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caltexn wrote:
scifiantihero wrote:
caltexn wrote:
oilerfan wrote:
You could do that. You could also supplement that losing bid with keyples from behind your screen to form a new bid elsewhere (or activate a tile elsewhere with or without supplements).


Thanks for the reply Jason, but I didn't expect that it would be allowed to make such a move, as in my above example. The reason I interpret it that way is that I believe the rule is stating that "If workers are outbid, they can be moved [to a tile] elsewhere..." I supplied the words in brackets from the rulebook.


You're reading too much into the rules. (Which, uh, happens when you add your own words to them )

Your outbid workers may go bid somewhere else. They may activate a tile (any tile, even the one you're bidding on.) They may be used as part of an exchange going back into the back. They can stay where they are and go back to your screen at the end of the season.


Thanks for the reply Derry, but I'm not reading too much into the rules, but trying to understand what the rulebook doesn't say, since there could be two different interpretations of where "elsewhere" means. That is, does it mean to a different tile, or can it also mean the same tile, i.e. from a bid placement to a production placement on the same tile. No one has given a definitive answer to that, but to say I'm reading too much into the rules.

I understand the rest of the rulebook instruction on the use of these workers that are moved from low bids. That is clear. I just would like a more authoritative answer to whether moving them "elsewhere" means you can actually consider the same tile where they are deployed as bidders to make them producers on that same tile is still moving them "elsewhere", or as you even say, "somewhere else."


Been subscribed to the forum since it was announced.

When essen is cooled down one of the designers is likeley to see your post if you don't want to listen to us.

Elsewhere means go do something else with the meeples. The rules explain what you can do with meeples and it doesn't restrict those options in the way you're imagining a definition of a single word might. Restrictions are very clear in the rules.

Call it what you want.

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Rom Brown
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I pretty sure bidding for a tile and producing upon a tile are quite separate actions within the game, and one would be considered "elseware" from the other.

I'd think Mr Breese would have been a bit more verbose in his rules wording, if you absolutely could not place your workers on the same tile you had previously been bidding on. It doesn't really make any sense to me why you would be specifically prohibited from producing on that particular tile, but not any of the others. It would seem to just add unwarranted complexity.
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Byron S
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Agreed, moving from a bid on the edge of a tile to being placed on the tile itself for production counts as 'elsewhere'. They're not where they started; they're somewhere else.
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Stephen Sanders
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runtsta wrote:
Agreed, moving from a bid on the edge of a tile to being placed on the tile itself for production counts as 'elsewhere'. They're not where they started; they're somewhere else.


Really?? The "edge" of a tile seems to me to be still the same tile, not "somewhere else," so how is that is necessarily "elsewhere."

I have yet to hear from anyone an interpretation that is anymore authoritative than my own, that state that bidding workers that have been overbid can be placed on the same tile they were removed from.
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Craig Johnson
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caltexn wrote:
runtsta wrote:
Agreed, moving from a bid on the edge of a tile to being placed on the tile itself for production counts as 'elsewhere'. They're not where they started; they're somewhere else.


Really?? The "edge" of a tile seems to me to be still the same tile, not "somewhere else," so how is that is necessarily "elsewhere."

I have yet to hear from anyone an interpretation that is anymore authoritative than my own, that state that bidding workers that have been overbid can be placed on the same tile they were removed from.


This thread is hilarious. Several people have helpfully answered your question, all of them agreeing that workers can be moved from a losing bid to the same tile, as clearly stated in the rules - yet you're not accepting the answers. What more do you need?
How about this:
"I hereby state authoritatively and without doubt that, in accordance with the rules of the game, workers may be moved from a losing bid on the edge of a tile to the centre of the same tile to activate its production action."
There you go.
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Olli Juhala
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caltexn wrote:
runtsta wrote:
Agreed, moving from a bid on the edge of a tile to being placed on the tile itself for production counts as 'elsewhere'. They're not where they started; they're somewhere else.


Really?? The "edge" of a tile seems to me to be still the same tile, not "somewhere else," so how is that is necessarily "elsewhere."

I have yet to hear from anyone an interpretation that is anymore authoritative than my own, that state that bidding workers that have been overbid can be placed on the same tile they were removed from.


But Activation and Bidding are quite clearly defined as separate (if somewhat mutually influencing actions).

So basically, the common interpretation, shared by folks answering to your inquiry is "outbid workers can (but do not need to) be moved to take take a different, legal action."
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Rom Brown
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caltexn wrote:
runtsta wrote:
Agreed, moving from a bid on the edge of a tile to being placed on the tile itself for production counts as 'elsewhere'. They're not where they started; they're somewhere else.


Really?? The "edge" of a tile seems to me to be still the same tile, not "somewhere else," so how is that is necessarily "elsewhere."

I have yet to hear from anyone an interpretation that is anymore authoritative than my own, that state that bidding workers that have been overbid can be placed on the same tile they were removed from.


Maybe you should have mentioned that [you believe] the questions in your original post were in fact rhetorical. Your mind appears to have been made up before your 'query'.

Personally, I believe workers "on a tile" and workers "not on a tile" are each likely to be in different places.

I feel you are not seeing the forest for the trees ... as the rules wording is "If workers are outbid, they can be moved elseware but must remain together." ... you seem to be overfocusing on your tile object ... that isn't actually mentioned there in the rule.
-_-
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Murr Rockstroh
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caltexn wrote:
I just would like a more authoritative answer to whether moving them "elsewhere" means you can actually consider the same tile where they are deployed as bidders to make them producers on that same tile is still moving them "elsewhere", or as you even say, "somewhere else."

Yes you can.
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Stephen Sanders
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minksling wrote:
caltexn wrote:
runtsta wrote:
Agreed, moving from a bid on the edge of a tile to being placed on the tile itself for production counts as 'elsewhere'. They're not where they started; they're somewhere else.


Really?? The "edge" of a tile seems to me to be still the same tile, not "somewhere else," so how is that is necessarily "elsewhere."

I have yet to hear from anyone an interpretation that is anymore authoritative than my own, that state that bidding workers that have been overbid can be placed on the same tile they were removed from.


Maybe you should have mentioned that [you believe] the questions in your original post were in fact rhetorical. Your mind appears to have been made up before your 'query'.

Personally, I believe workers "on a tile" and workers "not on a tile" are each likely to be in different places.

I feel you are not seeing the forest for the trees ... as the rules wording is "If workers are outbid, they can be moved elseware but must remain together." ... you seem to be overfocusing on your tile object ... that isn't actually mentioned there in the rule.
-_-


Well, being rhetorical was not my intent. I'm playing devil's advocate, trying to get someone to support my position (above) with a ruling of some sort so I could show an answer to my other players.

But, as they say, when 12 men say you're drunk, then you need to sit down. So I will play it as all 12 of you posters and thumbers have replied, since no one else has taken the other postion, and take this unanimous consensus as a solid interpretation (yes, you can move the bidders to the same tile for production).

Thanks to all who replied!

EDIT: And, yes, it would be great to hear from Breese on this.
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Sebastian Bleasdale
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caltexn wrote:
The question that came up is could these workers from a losing bid(s) move to the Production location of the same tile(s) where (one of) the losing worker bidders are currently located? So, could losing worker bidder on tile A join with losing worker bidder B (of same color) on tile B's production location? Is that considered moving "elsewhere?"

It is permissable to move workers who are loosing their bids onto the tile they are currently bidding for.

I hope you continue to enjoy Keyflower.

Sebastian Bleasdale
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Stephen Sanders
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Sebastian Bleasdale wrote:
caltexn wrote:
The question that came up is could these workers from a losing bid(s) move to the Production location of the same tile(s) where (one of) the losing worker bidders are currently located? So, could losing worker bidder on tile A join with losing worker bidder B (of same color) on tile B's production location? Is that considered moving "elsewhere?"

It is permissable to move workers who are loosing their bids onto the tile they are currently bidding for.

I hope you continue to enjoy Keyflower.

Sebastian Bleasdale


Yes, we are enjoying Keyflower very much, and thank you for your confirmation.
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