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Arkham Horror: The Card Game» Forums » Rules

Subject: Less is more rss

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Dax is
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When a card says you get xyz if you fail a test by 2 or less. Does that mean you get xyz if you fail by -1 -2 or -2, -3, ....
 
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David Boeren
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Todd Warnken
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daxis32 wrote:
When a card says you get xyz if you fail a test by 2 or less. Does that mean you get xyz if you fail by -1 -2 or -2, -3, ....


If you need a 3 to succeed and your result is 1 or 2 then you failed by 2 or less. If your result is 0 or lower then you failed by more than 2.
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Scott Dockery
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Nitpick: Per the RR, you can't end up with a final value less than zero. Zero is the minimum. Thus, if the test itself is has a target of 2, then even a -6 or Tentacle is failing "by 2 or less."
 
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Richard A. Edwards
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rsdockery wrote:
Nitpick: Per the RR, you can't end up with a final value less than zero. Zero is the minimum. Thus, if the test itself is has a target of 2, then even a -6 or Tentacle is failing "by 2 or less."

The rules are really much more finicky and complicated than I'd like and it took me quite some time to work through this puzzle.

You're right that under the Modifiers rules (RR, page 15), the chaos token modifies the investigator's skill value (step ST.5 on page 26) which cannot be reduced to less than 0.

So if I have a skill of 2 and draw a -4, my modified skill is considered to be zero.

However, the initial question about failing the test by a certain amount hasn't been answered yet. All we've done is determine that the modified skill value is now 0.

So if the test difficulty is 2 and my modified skill value is 0, then I have failed by 2 during ST.6 Determine success/failure of skill test.

If the test difficulty is 6 and my modified skill value is 0, then I have failed by 6.

This sort of hyper-legalese rules for a cooperative story-driven card game are, IMHO, excessive.
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Joel Tamburo
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I don't find the rules to be hyper legalese at all. In fact, I like the concept of how the Chaos token modifiers apply. Do the adds and subtracts with zero being the "floor" value. Then do any multiplying and dividing.

So, if the final value is less than zero it is treated as zero for all purposes. So to the question of an effect triggering when failing a test by 2 or less it would require the test to have a difficulty of 1 or 2 in the first place if the final value of the ability is zero.
 
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Jonatan Rueløkke
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Lets say a skill test is 2 and i have 3 in my skill. I then get a -4 token. Right now i have a skill of 0, so i play the survivor card that gives me +2. Do i now succeed and go from 0-2 or does the last minus that i didnt subtract, go into effect?
 
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Joel Tamburo
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The Skill Test Timing answers that.

You can't play the card once the Chaos token is drawn because cards are played in STEP 2 and the Chaos token is drawn in STEP 3.

So, your scenario would be Base Skill 3 + 2 for card for 5. Subtract 4 for the Chaos token to get Final Skill of 1. Ergo you fail the Level 2 Test.
 
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Jonatan Rueløkke
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No not with the survivor card in question, now i looked at it and i am talking about Lucky which states.

Fast. Play when you would fail a skill test.
Get +2 to your skill value for that test. Draw 1 card.

Thereby i can play it after drawing the chaos token. "At least they did that in the team covenant video"
 
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Ivan Cox
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Drakthalos wrote:
No not with the survivor card in question, now i looked at it and i am talking about Lucky which states.

Fast. Play when you would fail a skill test.
Get +2 to your skill value for that test. Draw 1 card.

Thereby i can play it after drawing the chaos token. "At least they did that in the team covenant video"


Rules Reference under 'Modifiers' provides exactly that scenario as an example, bolded below:

'Modifiers
Some abilities cause values or quantities of characteristics to be modified. The game state constantly checks and (if necessary) updates the count of any variable value or quantity that is being modified.

Any time a new modifier is applied (or removed), the entire quantity is recalculated from the start, considering the unmodified base value and all active modifiers.

==When calculating a value, treat all modifiers as being applied simultaneously. However, while performing the calculation, all additive and subtractive modifiers are calculated before doubling and/or halving modifiers.
==Fractional values are rounded up after all modifiers have been applied.
==A quantity on a card (such as a stat, an icon, a number of instances of a trait or keyword) cannot be reduced so that it functions with a value below zero. Negative modifiers in excess of a value’s current quantity can be applied, but, after all active modifiers have been applied, any resultant value below zero is treated as zero. (For example: Danny tests agility and reveals a –8 chaos token. When applied to his agility of 4, this would reduce his skill value to –4. However, his agility cannot be reduced so that it functions with a value below zero. While the –8 modifier still exists, his agility is treated as zero. If Danny were to play “Lucky!” to receive a +2 bonus to the test, this bonus would not be applied to the functioning skill value of zero; but rather, it is applied in conjunction with all active modifiers. Danny’s agility would then be calculated as follows: base skill 4, –8 from chaos token, +2 from “Lucky!” for a total of –2, which is still treated as zero.)
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Jonatan Rueløkke
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Ahh thanks alot. But a card which reduces the test to 0 would make me win even if i get the -8 token correct?
 
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Ivan Cox
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Drakthalos wrote:
Ahh thanks alot. But a card which reduces the test to 0 would make me win even if i get the -8 token correct?


Cite a specific example please.
 
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Jonatan Rueløkke
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Well they talk about it in the other post recently added. But i was not sure about other than Auto-fail is fail so. Lets say i use Flashlight on an area with Shroud value of 2. Will i succeed allways unless i get an autofail?
 
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Ivan Cox
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Drakthalos wrote:
Well they talk about it in the other post recently added. But i was not sure about other than Auto-fail is fail so. Lets say i use Flashlight on an area with Shroud value of 2. Will i succeed allways unless i get an autofail?


That's my interpretation, yeah. The shroud value is modified from 2 to 0. After all modifiers are applied to the test result, if it's below zero, it's set at zero, which is a pass as far as I can see.
 
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Josh Cain
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Drakthalos wrote:
Well they talk about it in the other post recently added. But i was not sure about other than Auto-fail is fail so. Lets say i use Flashlight on an area with Shroud value of 2. Will i succeed allways unless i get an autofail?


Actually, I think you will always succeed. The rules mention that the "autofail" token in practice reduces your skill to 0. If the difficulty of the test is also 0, then you have met or exceeded the test value.
 
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Ivan Cox
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GreatGopher wrote:
Drakthalos wrote:
Well they talk about it in the other post recently added. But i was not sure about other than Auto-fail is fail so. Lets say i use Flashlight on an area with Shroud value of 2. Will i succeed allways unless i get an autofail?


Actually, I think you will always succeed. The rules mention that the "autofail" token in practice reduces your skill to 0. If the difficulty of the test is also 0, then you have met or exceeded the test value.


Automatic Failure/Success in RR says:

'Automatic Failure/Success
Some card or token abilities may cause a skill test to automatically fail or to automatically succeed. If a skill test automatically fails or automatically succeeds, it does so during step “ST.6” of the “Skill Test Timing” process outlined on page 26.

==If a skill test automatically fails, the investigator’s total skill value for that test is considered 0.
==If a skill test automatically succeeds, the total difficulty of that test is considered 0.'

Skill Test timing section of the RR says:

'If an investigator automatically fails at a test via a card ability or revealing the [auto-fail] symbol, his or her total skill value for that test is considered 0.'

I think you've misread the sections about the skill value for auto-fail being considered 0. The test is automatically failed, and the RR clarifies that in addition to that (not instead of that), the result is considered 0. That information is for situations where the test asks by how much you pass or fail the test.
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Kelly B
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Hellicon wrote:
GreatGopher wrote:
Drakthalos wrote:
Well they talk about it in the other post recently added. But i was not sure about other than Auto-fail is fail so. Lets say i use Flashlight on an area with Shroud value of 2. Will i succeed allways unless i get an autofail?


Actually, I think you will always succeed. The rules mention that the "autofail" token in practice reduces your skill to 0. If the difficulty of the test is also 0, then you have met or exceeded the test value.


Automatic Failure/Success in RR says:

'Automatic Failure/Success
Some card or token abilities may cause a skill test to automatically fail or to automatically succeed. If a skill test automatically fails or automatically succeeds, it does so during step “ST.6” of the “Skill Test Timing” process outlined on page 26.

==If a skill test automatically fails, the investigator’s total skill value for that test is considered 0.
==If a skill test automatically succeeds, the total difficulty of that test is considered 0.'

Skill Test timing section of the RR says:

'If an investigator automatically fails at a test via a card ability or revealing the [auto-fail] symbol, his or her total skill value for that test is considered 0.'

I think you've misread the sections about the skill value for auto-fail being considered 0. The test is automatically failed, and the RR clarifies that in addition to that (not instead of that), the result is considered 0. That information is for situations where the test asks by how much you pass or fail the test.


Indeed and for further clarification, the Chaos Token section of the RR clarifies that the test automatically fails.
 
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Joel Tamburo
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Drakthalos wrote:
No not with the survivor card in question, now i looked at it and i am talking about Lucky which states.

Fast. Play when you would fail a skill test.
Get +2 to your skill value for that test. Draw 1 card.

Thereby i can play it after drawing the chaos token. "At least they did that in the team covenant video"


I believe Ivan did it properly, but here it is.

What "Lucky" lets you do is play a card outside the usual window. When you play the card, you recompute everything. So you don't floor out at zero then add +2. As Ivan noted the rules example is pretty clear.
 
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