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Subject: [SPOILER] Rule 23 rss

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TJ
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Spoiler (click to reveal)
Do you place enmity on Arados when you raid the temple or conquer Tortosa? Unlike Rule 22 with Ker, the rules don't specify to place enmity, but the colony says when raided place permanent enmity instead of tokens.

Unless I hear otherwise, we're ruling it that since you're raiding an NPC, you just apply 1 enmity (permanent enmity because of Tortosa's special rule) per the rules for raiding island sites
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Joe fakelastnameson
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RULE 23 questions (SPOILERS!)

I had a couple of other questions regarding this -

Spoiler (click to reveal)
The colony on Arados (Tortosa) says :

"Raids add permanent enmity instead of enmity tokens".

1. Do ALL raids everywhere add permanent enmity instead of enmity tokens, or only raids at tortosa?

2. How much enmity (tokens or permanent?) do you place for raiding and destroying the temple at tortosa?

3. How much enmity (tokens or permanent?) do you place for raiding and claiming the colony of tortosa?

4. Does destroying the Temple grant the same rewards as plundering a building at a province site?

 
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Joe fakelastnameson
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From JR directly:
Spoiler (click to reveal)

1. Do ALL raids everywhere add permanent enmity instead of enmity tokens, or only raids at tortosa?

only at Tortosa

2. How much enmity (tokens or permanent?) do you place for raiding and destroying the temple at tortosa?

One

3. How much enmity (tokens or permanent?) do you place for raiding and claiming the colony of tortosa?

One

4. Does destroying the Temple grant the same rewards as plundering a building at a province site?

Yes!

 
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Glitchy Predator
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Silly follow up question. How can you even raid that structure? Nobody has ten embody tokens to use, and you have to have ten to raid the temple. What's the explanation?
 
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Brian Denning
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The answer that seems most likely to me is, since he said you only need 1 token to raid it from them, once you manage to BUY it, NO ONE can take it back from you.
 
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Brian Denning
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So, I actually have 2 follow-up questions as well.

First: with Ker, since it's always active, do you need a colony marker on it?

Second: with "new Tortosa," after you steal it, I notice that it's a REALLY GOOD colony, but I don't quite understand the effect. It appears to be the same as normal Tortosa, but I would assume it only applies to the governor? Does it apply to all of the Governor's raids? Ask raids against the governor? Raids against the governor, but only at New Tortosa? I would assume the former -- and, given how good it is, a negative effect makes sense -- but it's still confusing.

Side note: anyone else feel like there weren't enough Enmity stickers? Especially now that we use them for Interrogations and everything?
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Frank Pelkofer
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McBehrer wrote:
So, I actually have 2 follow-up questions as well.

First: with Ker, since it's always active, do you need a colony marker on it?

Second: with "new Tortosa," after you steal it, I notice that it's a REALLY GOOD colony, but I don't quite understand the effect. It appears to be the same as normal Tortosa, but I would assume it only applies to the governor? Does it apply to all of the Governor's raids? Ask raids against the governor? Raids against the governor, but only at New Tortosa? I would assume the former -- and, given how good it is, a negative effect makes sense -- but it's still confusing.

Side note: anyone else feel like there weren't enough Enmity stickers? Especially now that we use them for Interrogations and everything?


Rule 19 has a sentence at the end that says "Place one of your province markers on the island space on the board to show ownership of an active colony." My reading is that means all active colonies need a marker. I think there's a thread elsewhere that contradicts this, but that's how I read the rules.

Not sure about any of the Tortosa questions.soblue
 
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Martin Mayer
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Take a look into this discussion:

https://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/24498780#24498780

The actual last post from Ira Fay should answer your qestion!

 
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Brian D

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So once conquered I assume the person who did claims Tortosa like normal, but does it have to be activated in future games? Or is it like Ker and is perma activated?
 
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Brian Denning
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It didn't say otherwise, so you'll have to activate it.
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.
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shadysjunk wrote:
From JR directly:
Spoiler (click to reveal)

2. How much enmity (tokens or permanent?) do you place for raiding and destroying the temple at tortosa?

One

3. How much enmity (tokens or permanent?) do you place for raiding and claiming the colony of tortosa?
One


Can anyone help me find where these rulings from JR are supported in the rules? I'm tearing my hair out to find a place that even suggests you only place a single enmity when raiding a building site or conquering a colony.

I mean, I don't doubt that JR is correct. I trust him to know the rules of the game. I just want to know how I would be expected to know these rules if I hadn't looked on BGG. Please show me what I'm overlooking!
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j n
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ElAdoranSureshot wrote:

Can anyone help me find where these rulings from JR are supported in the rules? I'm tearing my hair out to find a place that even suggests you only place a single enmity when raiding a building site or conquering a colony.

I mean, I don't doubt that JR is correct. I trust him to know the rules of the game. I just want to know how I would be expected to know these rules if I hadn't looked on BGG. Please show me what I'm overlooking!


You wouldn't know it without the ruling. And it's only true for those two specific cases. It seems like it was supposed to get something like Ker had, where there was a replacement effect for the normal rules. For some reason, it didn't make it through to the final release.
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Becq Starforged
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My best attempt at massaging the information:

* The rules discuss raiding in two broad categories: island sites and province sites. Presumably all sites that can be raided fall into one of these two categories.
* Most sites throughout the game fall fairly obviously into one of these two categories:
(Box 1)
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Ships are controlled by provinces and are considered province sites

(Box 2)
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Colonies are generally controlled by provinces and are considered province sites

(Box 4)
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Ker, before being conquered, is not a province site, and therefore presumably falls under the category of island site.

(Box 5)
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Patmos, before being conquered, is not a province site, and therefore presumably falls under the category of island site. Same thing with it's structure, the Temple.

* Island sites, according to the rules, "in all cases" cost 1 enmity token.

There are a couple of holes in this logic, which I will leave as an exercise for the student...
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Wow. Thanks for the clarification. An official FAQ can't come soon enough.

(I mean it literally can't; we're going to finish the campaign by then.)
 
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Charles Waterman
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"From JR directly:"

Is this from an email from JR to you personally?
If not, could you put a link to where he's quoted saying this? Especially about **question 4**
shadysjunk wrote:


Spoiler (click to reveal)

1. Do ALL raids everywhere add permanent enmity instead of enmity tokens, or only raids at tortosa?

only at Tortosa

2. How much enmity (tokens or permanent?) do you place for raiding and destroying the temple at tortosa?

One

3. How much enmity (tokens or permanent?) do you place for raiding and claiming the colony of tortosa?

One

4. Does destroying the Temple grant the same rewards as plundering a building at a province site?

Yes!

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George
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shadysjunk wrote:
From JR directly:
Spoiler (click to reveal)

1. Do ALL raids everywhere add permanent enmity instead of enmity tokens, or only raids at tortosa?

only at Tortosa

2. How much enmity (tokens or permanent?) do you place for raiding and destroying the temple at tortosa?

One

3. How much enmity (tokens or permanent?) do you place for raiding and claiming the colony of tortosa?

One

4. Does destroying the Temple grant the same rewards as plundering a building at a province site?

Yes!



Do we have confirmed anywhere, even second hand, how many successes are required? My theory is that successes needed should always equal enmity given. And I like Becq's reasoning above on island sites vs player sites, so I'm thinking the number of successes may change whether player owned or not....

Box 5 spoilers:

Spoiler (click to reveal)
- We have confirmed that raiding the Temple and Tortusa each only place 1 enmity.
- We have confirmed that raiding the Temple once player owned you need 10 enmity (and 10 successes due to normal plunder value rules).
- The standard rules for taking Colonies is you place 6 enmity. The printed rules of taking no damage means 6 successes.
- Rob's confusing response to conquering unowned Ker was "Turns out there's a typo/error on the conquering a colony card. It should not read "take no damage" but rather a normal endeavor."
This could make sense and reconcile with the printed rules somewhat if conquering unowned Ker takes only a single success, but conquering a player owned colony still takes 6 successes (due to inferred Plunder Value of 6 due to the 6 enmity) meaning no damage.

Therefore:
Conquering Ker - only takes 1 success. However instead of 1 enmity, there is a special rule that you place 4+2 enmity stickers.
(balance note: with all the initial enmity that is placed on Ker, 1 success seems fine.)

Raiding Temple in Tortusa - only takes 1 success and you place 1 enmity.
(balance note: even with island defense 10 and garrison 2, this unfortunately seems a lot easier than needing 10 successes for something that's worth a 5 glory milestone. Maybe too easy.)

Conquering Tortusa - only takes 1 success and you place 1 enmity.
(balance note: since island defense is 10 and garrison 2 this pretty much still requires the 6 successes a player colony would take anyway. Conquering Tortusa seems undesirable though so this is a good change.)

Conquering Player Colonies (including Ker and Tortosa once conquered by players):
You need 6 successes (Plunder Value 6) and so place 6 enmity.

Raiding Temple rebuilt by player:
Plunder Value 10 means you need 10 successes and give 10 enmity (have their tokens or enmity discount).

I realize this is theory and the usual response is you need 10 successes for the temple, but this at least makes a lot of sense to me and is consistent with the prior rules of island vs player stuff.

But does it make the Temple Raid Milestone too easy though?

I’m not sure what to make yet of Rob’s “inactive colonies have a defense of 2”. My current thought is keep the Plunder Value of 6, meaning 6 successes + 6 enmity and transfers inactive. Defense 2 would just mean you don't have to worry about taking damage if failing. Gameplay-wise, I’m not sure why an inactive colony really needs to be easier to conquer anyway.


...Hmmm, maybe I shouldn't try to find logic in the inconsistencies, and just treat the known clarifications as special unique rules!

Requiring 10 successes for the Temple could make sense. But I do really like the "Plunder Value 6" rule for conquering colonies.
 
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George
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Oooh found a twitter response from Rob saying you don't need 10 successes:

https://twitter.com/robdaviau/status/828352756670926850
 
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Becq Starforged
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soosy wrote:
Oooh found a twitter response from Rob saying you don't need 10 successes:

https://twitter.com/robdaviau/status/828352756670926850

Wow. A one line clarification in which the two short sentences contradict each other. If it's a standard raid, it needs enough successes to match the plunder value (10). An unmodified ship could avoid sinking with eight successes (and a modified one could survive fewer successes), but that wouldn't be enough to satisfy the plunder rating.

I'm going to stick with the rules, given an internally contradictory clarification.
 
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Darren Nakamura
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I think "it's a standard raid" could be more flushed out to him saying "it's a standard player-vs.-NPC raid." As in, you don't care about the plunder value, you only care about the garrison, defense, and not sinking.

I will still play it as needed ten successes too, if it ever comes up again.
 
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George
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Dexter345 wrote:
I think "it's a standard raid" could be more flushed out to him saying "it's a standard player-vs.-NPC raid." As in, you don't care about the plunder value, you only care about the garrison, defense, and not sinking.


Yeah, since the question was "10 successes or just not sink?" and the answer is "don't sink" I think standard player vs NPC raid is what is meant. I can see how it's a bit ambiguous though.

Problem is, it is never clear what the rule is for attacking/conquering non-player colony stuff. Do you follow the raid rules for players? Or do you follow the raid rules for other island stuff?

Given that tweet and the answer of only 1 enmity, I'm going to suggest to my group we play it as just another island raid.

Dexter345 wrote:
I will still play it as needed ten successes too, if it ever comes up again.


Just because it makes it too easy? I can see that. I guess I could justify its easy-ness by saying that there have been other easy milestones mixed in. And it could be seen as a reward for the Raid oriented players compared to the stuff the Explore oriented players get. Of course, making it easier also makes it more achievable for Explore oriented players so you could look at that both ways.

So far my group hasn't minded the wild swings Milestones give anyway, so that isn't a factor for us either.


 
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Becq Starforged
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Even with the full successes, our raid player completed it handily on his first try.
 
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