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Sentinels of the Multiverse» Forums » Variants

Subject: Custom Villain - The King of Evil rss

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Dérek Boily
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The King of Evil is openly inspired and meant to emulate The Musical Swordsman nemesis : Ganondorf. Many thanks to
Matthew Bishop
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for all his wonderful work!

In yet another timeline, The King of Evil succeeds in obtaining the Sacred Trigon by way of manipulation, cunning and villainy. Darkness has spread wide across the land, and yet the fabled Sages are still hiding, hoping for a hero... As it stands, the 7 Sages' power might be the only thing able to banish this demon from the world. But The King of Evil has already begun his hunt and his intentions are clear: to seal the 7 Sages away before they do the same to him...

This encounter is heavily based on the events of Ocarina of Time. On his front side, The King of Evil slowly summons Bosses to hinder the heroes, but the real menace is really the destruction of the Sages. Each time a Sage is "captured", the villain gets a benefit and if all Sages are "captured", The King of Evil wins. If you manage to beat him before he captures all the Sages though, you get a reward for each rescued Sage. When he flips, there's no more Bosses to aid him. He's all alone and he starts hitting really hard. The more he gets beaten up, the more damage he'll throw at you...



Villain: The King of Evil
HP: 30
Nemesis: The Musical Swordsman

Villain Character Card, Front (Guardian of the Desert)
---
Setup:
At the start of the game, put The King of Evil's villain character card into play, "Guardian of the Desert" side up. Put Heir to the Kingdom and 7-(H) Sages into play and remove the other Sages from the game. Put Floating Fortress into play. Shuffle the villain deck.

Game play:
-Whenever there are no Sage in play, the heroes lose the game.
-Whenever The King of Evil is reduced to 0 or fewer HP, destroy all villain targets and flip this card.
-Whenever infernal damage is redirected to The King of Evil, reveal the top card of the villain deck. If it is a target, discard it, redirect this damage to the hero character card with the highest HP and increase it by 2. Otherwise, shuffle it back in the villain deck.
-Increase radiant damage dealt to The King of Evil by 1.
-At the end of the villain turn, The King of Evil deals the hero character card with the highest HP and the Sage with the lowest HP 2 infernal damage.

Advanced:
-Increase damage dealt by The King of Evil by 1.


Villain Character Card, Back (Wish from a Wicked Heart)
---
Game play:
-When this card is flipped to this side, flip all Sages in play and The King of Evil regains 30 HP.
-Whenever a villain target would enter play, discard it instead and The King of Evil deals the hero character card with the highest HP X melee damage, where X is the maximum HP of the discarded card.
-At the end of the villain turn, The King of Evil deals the hero character card with the lowest HP 3 infernal damage. Then, play the top card of the villain deck. Then, if The King of Evil has 20 HP or less, play the top card of the villain deck. Then, if The King of Evil has 10 HP or less, play the top card of the villain deck.

Advanced:
-Reduce damage dealt to The King of Evil by 1.



Sage / Hero Ongoing (Qty: 7) ***Those cards are double-sided. On one side, you have each of the 7 Sages and on the flip side, you'll find the Medallion, which are considered Hero Ongoing cards***
---
Heir to the Kingdom [Sage] (Qty: 1, HP: 9)
-This card is indestructible. When this card is reduced to 0 or fewer HP, all players must skip their next play phase. Then, remove this card from the game.
---> Humble Wisdom [Hero Ongoing]
Put this card next to a hero character card. This hero gains the following power:
Power: You may play up to 2 cards now. Destroy this card.
Whenever this card would leave play, remove it from the game instead.

Wise Old Man [Sage] (Qty: 1, HP: 6)
-This card is indestructible. When this card is reduced to 0 or fewer HP, all players must skip their next power phase. Then, remove this card from the game.
---> Medallion of Light [Hero Ongoing]
Put this card next to a hero character card. This hero gains the following power:
Power: You may use up to 2 powers now. Destroy this card.
Whenever this card would leave play, remove it from the game instead.

Girl from the Forest [Sage] (Qty: 1, HP: 5)
-This card is indestructible. When this card is reduced to 0 or fewer HP, all players must discard 2 cards. Then, remove this card from the game.
---> Medallion of the Forest [Hero Ongoing]
Put this card next to a hero character card. This hero gains the following power:
Power: You may draw up to 3 cards. Destroy this card.
Whenever this card would leave play, remove it from the game instead.

Princess of the Rivers [Sage] (Qty: 1, HP: 5)
-This card is indestructible. When this card is reduced to 0 or fewer HP, The King of Evil regains (H)+1 HP. Then, remove this card from the game.
---> Medallion of Water [Hero Ongoing]
Put this card next to a hero character card. This hero gains the following power:
Power: A target regains 5 HP. Destroy this card.
Whenever this card would leave play, remove it from the game instead.

Brother of the Mountain [Sage] (Qty: 1, HP: 8)
-This card is indestructible. When this card is reduced to 0 or fewer HP, The King of Evil deals the hero target with the highest HP (H)+2 fire damage. Then, remove this card from the game.
---> Medallion of Fire [Hero Ongoing]
Put this card next to a hero character card. This hero gains the following power:
Power: The hero next to this card deals a target 5 fire damage. Destroy this card.
Whenever this card would leave play, remove it from the game instead.

Thief from the Desert [Sage] (Qty: 1, HP: 5)
-This card is indestructible. When this card is reduced to 0 or fewer HP, destroy (H)-1 hero ongoing and/or equipment cards. Then, remove this card from the game.
---> Medallion of Spirit [Hero Ongoing]
Put this card next to a hero character card. This hero gains the following power:
Power: Destroy up to 2 villain non-character cards. Destroy this card.
Whenever this card would leave play, remove it from the game instead.

Royal Protector [Sage] (Qty: 1, HP: 7)
-This card is indestructible. When this card is reduced to 0 or fewer HP, reduce the next (H) damage dealt to The King of Evil by 2. Then, remove this card from the game.
---> Medallion of Shadow [Hero Ongoing]
Put this card next to a hero character card. This hero gains the following power:
Power: Reduce the next 3 damage dealt to the hero next to this card by 2. Destroy this card.
Whenever this card would leave play, remove it from the game instead.

One-Shot (Qty: 3)
---
Crystal Prison (Qty: 3)
-Reduce the HP of the Sage with the lowest HP to 0. If there are no Sage in play, destroy (H) hero ongoing and/or equipment cards.

Ongoing (Qty: 5)
---
Reckless Power (Qty: 2)
-When this card enters or leaves play, play the top card of the villain deck. Increase damage dealt by The King of Evil by 1.

Dreadful Leitmotiv (Qty: 1)
-At the end of the villain turn, each hero target and Sage deal themselves 1 irreducible psychic damage. When this card enters play, play the top card of the villain deck.

Dead Man's Volley (Qty: 2)
-Whenever The King of Evil deals or redirects infernal damage, the targeted hero's player may discard 2 cards to redirect it at The King of Evil. At the end of the villain turn, destroy this card and play the top card of the villain deck.

Targets (Qty: 10)
---
Parasitic Arachnid [Boss] (Qty: 1, HP: 5)
-At the end of the villain turn, this card deals the hero character card with the lowest HP (H)-1 toxic damage. This hero cannot use power until the start of the next villain turn.

Armored Dinosaur [Boss] (Qty: 1, HP: 6)
-Reduce damage dealt to The King of Evil and Bosses by 1.

Bio-Electric Anemone [Boss] (Qty: 1, HP: 5)
-The first time each turn a hero target deals damage to a villain target, this card deals this hero target 2 lightning damage.

Spirit from Beyond [Boss] (Qty: 1, HP: 4)
-The first time The King of Evil or this card would be dealt damage each turn, redirect it to the hero target with the highest HP.
-At the start of the villain turn, this card deals Girl from the Forest 1 infernal damage.

Aquatic Amoeba [Boss] (Qty: 1, HP: 6)
-At the end of the villain turn, this card deals each hero target 2 cold damage.
-At the start of the villain turn, this card deals Princess of the Rivers 1 cold damage.

Lava Dragon [Boss] (Qty: 1, HP: 8)
-At the end of the villain turn, this card deals the hero target with the highest HP (H)+1 fire damage.
-At the start of the villain turn, this card deals Brother of the Mountain 2 fire damage.

Fire Sorceress [Boss, Twin Sister] (Qty: 1, HP: 4)
-When this card enters play, search the villain deck and trash for a Twin Sister and put it into play
-This card is immune to fire damage.
-At the start of the villain turn, this card deals each hero target and Thief from the Desert 1 fire damage.

Ice Sorceress [Boss, Twin Sister] (Qty: 1, HP: 4)
-When this card enters play, search the villain deck and trash for a Twin Sister and put it into play
-This card is immune to cold damage.
-At the start of the villain turn, Thief from the Desert and this card each deal the hero target with the lowest HP 2 cold damage.

Phantom Beast [Boss] (Qty: 1, HP: 3)
-At the end of the villain turn, each player discards 1 card.
-Reduce damage dealt to this card by 2.
-At the start of the villain turn, this card deals Royal Protector 2 infernal damage.

Floating Fortress [Evil Lair] (Qty: 1, HP: 9)
-Whenever a hero target deals damage to The King of Evil, a player must discard 1 card.


Comments more than welcome!
Thanks for reading and keep on saving the Multiverse!
 
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Dérek Boily
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Some notes on the thematic reasoning:

***Dead Man's Volley: I really want to make this thing work. This is kind of a trademark move from the Zelda boss fights, where the boss sends you an attack, which Link could throw back at him... If I'm able to find the right wording, it could turn into a nice push your luck mechanic that could be interesting...

***The King of Evil weakness to radiant is a direct reference to The Musical Swordsman Heroic Bow and its ability to deal radiant damage if Infused Magic is in play. Probably not inherently needed, but I like small thematic details showing through in the mechanics...

***A good answer to Shadow Beast would be to use The Musical Swordsman's Thruthful Eye, meant to be thematically appropriate...

***Humble Wisdom and Reckless Power are analog to The Musical Swordsman's Quiet Courage (Not sure on the name of the cards though). I also tried to put some card discarding effects in The King of Evil's deck, as to make Quiet Courage an important card to play when against him...

***Floating Fortress, being a target, gets destroyed no matter what when the villain flips and can never come back into play. If it gets "played" on the villain flipped side, it will cause the single highest possible instance of damage due to target discarding, just like he's throwing chunks of his tower at you. I thought it made sense thematically...

----------

Playtesting notes:

1st game: Musical Swordsman + The Knight + Mr. Fixer in Final Wasteland

-Heroes win at 2HP/0HP/3HP. Ended the fight with both Musical Swordsman and Mr. Fixer really well set up (Infused Magic + Heroic Bow + Sword of Mastery, Grease Monkey Fist + Pipe Wrench + Harmony). The Final Wasteland tunrs out to be really punishing for the heroes as some monsters were chewing on the Sages... Thematic, but the fact that The King of Evil rely on the environment might not be the best thing, mechanically...

2nd game: Guise + Unity + Nightmist + Freedom Five Tachyon in Freedom Tower

-Heroes won quite handily... Not a lot of Entry Point showed up though... This is one of the first time where I saw Unity really shine: Stealth + Swift + 3 T-rex + Bee is... terrifying...

3rd game: Fanatic + Tempest + Captain Cosmic in Cybersphere

-Heroes lose with The King of Evil at 7HP left. Once again, I realize this villain is really dependent on the environement. Thinking about bumping up the Sage's HP and buffing the damage dealt by villain targets. This way, the Sages would be destroyed at the same rate, but the environment would be less influential. It would also hurt the heroes more, because the damage dealt on the front side is quite low as it stands now...
 
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Matthew Bishop
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Some cool stuff! Also some potential issues I see:
- The sages have low HP and the environment could easily wreck them. It seems like the default environment card (of later sets) has been "deal 2 to everything". I assume more sages is supposed to equate to an easier game, but a 3p game where the environment kills all the sages simultaneously a few turns in would be much worse than a 5p game with fewer sages.
- Sans playtesting, he looks...extremely easy? He's doing 2 damage and playing one card. Most of his minions are easy to kill and deal around 3 damage to one hero. He'll kill a sage every other turn (at best) which function as somewhat painful one-shots. But he's not really doing enough to make you scared of just building up to full power and then clobbering him (front and back) in short order. Since he flips as soon as HP = 0, he may never get a turn on his back side. It appears pretty similar to Dendron, actually, and I can tell you that her flip mechanics proved much easier than we expected.
- The rule card volley wording seems pretty cumbersome considering it usually only matters with that particular card in play; why not move all the text to that card? You could even replace the volley ongoing with an "energy ball" type target that moves back and forth, losing HP with each bounce, and dealing HP-base damage when it stops.

Wording things:
- The intent is blatantly obvious, but technically I'm not sure if you can remove indestructible cards from the game? Wouldn't really sweat it, but could have sages "indestructible while HP is greater than 0" followed by "when this card would be destroyed" to cover all options.
- If he "regains 30hp" on flip, any overkill damage is still there. If you "restore him to 30hp" you can't Omni-cannon for 60 on his front side to win. Dunno which was the intent.
- Why make the medallions hero ongoings? Serves very little purpose while making things confusing. I don't see any problem with leaving them as villain cards, with a "medallion" keyword.
- "___ medallion" and the boss subtitles are straight from the game; maybe more unique/tongue-in-cheek names? If you're shooting for parody immunity/matching the Swordsman's tone.
- "Reduce the next X damage by Y" makes no sense to me. If it's supposed to be "reduce the next X instances of damage by Y" that's not clear, and also that seems clunky to remember. Not worth it IMO.
- Why not make forest girl's power simpler: "draw 3 cards"? It's not like you're going to accidentally use it when you don't want to draw.
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J Sinnett
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tosx wrote:
- The intent is blatantly obvious, but technically I'm not sure if you can remove indestructible cards from the game? Wouldn't really sweat it, but could have sages "indestructible while HP is greater than 0" followed by "when this card would be destroyed" to cover all options.


I was about to agree here and say that, per the rulebook Glossary, indestructible trumps everything else... But then I got to thinking about it and I don't think we actually have anything that specifically details the interaction between 'Indestructible' and 'Remove from game', as the only time the interaction has ever occurred in official content is in the last month or two, after Setting Sun Ra became available, bringing with him the first time that Fixed Point could ever be in play at the same time as a card in play is told to be removed from the game.

*goes to post somewhere that Christopher might notice it*

(EDIT: Posted a thread over on the GTG forums about it; no official response yet, but the general consensus is becoming that 'Indestructible' trumps 'Remove from Game'. Which also means that Incapped Setting Sun Ra with Fixed Point in play may have just turned into a remarkably reusable tactical nuke.)


Might I note that any environment with a significant amount of ongoing destruction is going to be hellish with this villain?



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J Sinnett
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Perhaps 'Remove from Game' on the Sages is actually overthinking things. The proper tack may be to take a cue from Heroic Infinitor, instead, and have the Sages entirely indestructible, but have an effect within them that says when they would be reduced to 0 or fewer HP, the cards are... say, placed underneath the King of Evil's character card.

And then perhaps a way to rescue them once... Aha! If the King of Evil is given a few cards that aim at Sage Ongoing cards, then this can be turned into a tug-of-war villain.


Proposal:

1: If all seven Sages are beneath the King of Evil's character card, the heroes immediately lose the game.

2: At the start of the game, place (H) random Sages beneath the King of Evil's character card, and put the other two into play in the Villain play area.

3: A player may skip their play and power phases to rescue 1 random Sage from beneath the King of Evil's character card, put it into play in the Villain play area, and restore it to max HP. (note that this means their turn will go Start of Turn, Rescue, Draw two cards, End of Turn)

4: If a Sage Ongoing would be destroyed, it is instead flipped, put into play in the Villain play area, and restored to max HP.
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Dérek Boily
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tosx wrote:
Some cool stuff!

Thanks! cool


tosx wrote:
- The sages have low HP and the environment could easily wreck them. It seems like the default environment card (of later sets) has been "deal 2 to everything". I assume more sages is supposed to equate to an easier game, but a 3p game where the environment kills all the sages simultaneously a few turns in would be much worse than a 5p game with fewer sages.


Totally agree here, and it transpired in my playtesting. I tried to use relatively neutral environment for the playtesting, but it turns out "relatively neutral" often means "also hits villain targets", which is not desirable in this situation...! This has the effect of The King of Evil being heavily dependent on the environment. It could be thematically interpreted as him expanding his dark reign to find the Sages faster...? One thing I thought about is just bumping the HP of the Sages up and increasing each instances of damage done by the villain targets, to make the fight less dependent on the environment...


tosx wrote:
- Sans playtesting, he looks...extremely easy? He's doing 2 damage and playing one card. Most of his minions are easy to kill and deal around 3 damage to one hero. He'll kill a sage every other turn (at best) which function as somewhat painful one-shots. But he's not really doing enough to make you scared of just building up to full power and then clobbering him (front and back) in short order. Since he flips as soon as HP = 0, he may never get a turn on his back side. It appears pretty similar to Dendron, actually, and I can tell you that her flip mechanics proved much easier than we expected.


Interestingly enough, I had surprisingly close matches against him. I realize though that it might be because the environment hindered me more than the villain himself. Probably a bad thing... The suggestion above might address this situation as well: More HP to the Sages and overall more pain coming from the villain...


tosx wrote:
- The rule card volley wording seems pretty cumbersome considering it usually only matters with that particular card in play; why not move all the text to that card? You could even replace the volley ongoing with an "energy ball" type target that moves back and forth, losing HP with each bounce, and dealing HP-base damage when it stops.


My first idea was to have all the wording on the card, but it was WAY too wordy. I agree that having rules on the character card only for one card is cumbersome and inelegant, and I really want to address that. I'll try to come up with something else; I kinda like the Energy Ball with HP idea...


tosx wrote:
Wording things:
- The intent is blatantly obvious, but technically I'm not sure if you can remove indestructible cards from the game? Wouldn't really sweat it, but could have sages "indestructible while HP is greater than 0" followed by "when this card would be destroyed" to cover all options.


I thought about it too, and figured that the intent was indeed obvious enough. "indestructible while HP is greater than 0" would be perfect though. Changing it in my next iteration!


tosx wrote:
- If he "regains 30hp" on flip, any overkill damage is still there. If you "restore him to 30hp" you can't Omni-cannon for 60 on his front side to win. Dunno which was the intent.


This one slipped my mind. I had "restore him to 30HP in mind", yes. Thanks!


tosx wrote:
- Why make the medallions hero ongoings? Serves very little purpose while making things confusing. I don't see any problem with leaving them as villain cards, with a "medallion" keyword.


They were in fact "medallion" in earlier draft. The reason was for them being available to be destroyed by Crystal Prison when the villain has flipped. I'll probably change the wording for this card as well...


tosx wrote:
- "___ medallion" and the boss subtitles are straight from the game; maybe more unique/tongue-in-cheek names? If you're shooting for parody immunity/matching the Swordsman's tone.


Agreed. The fact that the bosses already had subtitles was just too tempting to use right away...! Also, it was faster to start testing the mechanics. I'll change all this in the next iteration!


tosx wrote:
- "Reduce the next X damage by Y" makes no sense to me. If it's supposed to be "reduce the next X instances of damage by Y" that's not clear, and also that seems clunky to remember. Not worth it IMO.


Yeah, Shadow made me think about Wraith's Stealth, and it kinda made sense with the Protector theme too, but I agree it's more fiddly than anything. I'll come up with something else...


tosx wrote:
- Why not make forest girl's power simpler: "draw 3 cards"? It's not like you're going to accidentally use it when you don't want to draw.


Probably right. I like to have the choice, but less word is always a plus...!

Thank you very much for all the feedback!
 
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Dérek Boily
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HikariStarshine wrote:
tosx wrote:
- The intent is blatantly obvious, but technically I'm not sure if you can remove indestructible cards from the game? Wouldn't really sweat it, but could have sages "indestructible while HP is greater than 0" followed by "when this card would be destroyed" to cover all options.


I was about to agree here and say that, per the rulebook Glossary, indestructible trumps everything else... But then I got to thinking about it and I don't think we actually have anything that specifically details the interaction between 'Indestructible' and 'Remove from game', as the only time the interaction has ever occurred in official content is in the last month or two, after Setting Sun Ra became available, bringing with him the first time that Fixed Point could ever be in play at the same time as a card in play is told to be removed from the game.

*goes to post somewhere that Christopher might notice it*

(EDIT: Posted a thread over on the GTG forums about it; no official response yet, but the general consensus is becoming that 'Indestructible' trumps 'Remove from Game'. Which also means that Incapped Setting Sun Ra with Fixed Point in play may have just turned into a remarkably reusable tactical nuke.)


Good point, thanks for the inquiry! The suggestion by Tosx ("indestructible while HP is greater than 0") would solve this particular issue though, so everything's fine!


HikariStarshine wrote:
Might I note that any environment with a significant amount of ongoing destruction is going to be hellish with this villain?


Hmmm... not sure why? Are you talking about the fact that Medallion are ongoing? This text would actually be on the reverse side of the card, so not in play on the villain front side. Also, I might change the Hero Ongoing keyword altogether in fact...

Thanks!
 
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Dérek Boily
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HikariStarshine wrote:
Perhaps 'Remove from Game' on the Sages is actually overthinking things. The proper tack may be to take a cue from Heroic Infinitor, instead, and have the Sages entirely indestructible, but have an effect within them that says when they would be reduced to 0 or fewer HP, the cards are... say, placed underneath the King of Evil's character card.

And then perhaps a way to rescue them once... Aha! If the King of Evil is given a few cards that aim at Sage Ongoing cards, then this can be turned into a tug-of-war villain.


Proposal:

1: If all seven Sages are beneath the King of Evil's character card, the heroes immediately lose the game.

2: At the start of the game, place (H) random Sages beneath the King of Evil's character card, and put the other two into play in the Villain play area.

3: A player may skip their play and power phases to rescue 1 random Sage from beneath the King of Evil's character card, put it into play in the Villain play area, and restore it to max HP. (note that this means their turn will go Start of Turn, Rescue, Draw two cards, End of Turn)

4: If a Sage Ongoing would be destroyed, it is instead flipped, put into play in the Villain play area, and restored to max HP.


The removal from the game was in fact to avoid the Sage cards being brought back in the villain deck (by some way or another), because they are not meant to be played from the villain deck, them being two-sided and whatnot...

Your idea seem interesting, though...! Does this mean that I could, for example, use Humble Wisdom to play two cards, but then Heir to the Kingdom would get back in the villain play area, ready to get kidnapped by The King of Evil? Personal opinion, but I'm not very fond of this fact, thematically speaking... Also, How would you "save" them and acquire their medallion? As of now, they all get saved when the villain flips and when saved, they can no longer get captured (the alternate losing condition is gone).

Thanks!
 
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J Sinnett
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I'm perhaps taking more of a Hyrule Warriors look at the sages, I guess, where the Sages are active members of the battle, and using their powers alerts the forces of darkness of their locations, hence returning them to play. Of course, that tack also requires adding a way to gain the Sages' assistance during the first part of the battle.

Admittedly, I'm also a little more fond of villains whose flip mechanic isn't tied to 'punch them until their HP crosses a line'. But that's just me.
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Seamus Butler
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One possbile suggestion is put the Sages into a seperate deck like the Title Cards in Karga Warfang and fill out the actual deck to 25 cards.
Then use a similar mechanic to the title cards to "save" the sages.
The boss then flips if you've saved all the sages as he has to go on a rampage before the sages can lock him away.
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Dérek Boily
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Faceontoast wrote:
One possbile suggestion is put the Sages into a seperate deck like the Title Cards in Karga Warfang and fill out the actual deck to 25 cards.
Then use a similar mechanic to the title cards to "save" the sages.
The boss then flips if you've saved all the sages as he has to go on a rampage before the sages can lock him away.


Could be a possible solution, yes. Although I'd prefer to keep it a single deck as I find it a little more consistent and elegant. Also note that Kaargra has a title deck of 10 cards, but her deck is actually 15 cards (plus 2 setup cards), for 25 cards total. It is possible >G had the titles be aprt of her deck originally, but it had to change for some reason or another. Might just be an economic decision too...
 
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Dérek Boily
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HikariStarshine wrote:
I'm perhaps taking more of a Hyrule Warriors look at the sages, I guess, where the Sages are active members of the battle, and using their powers alerts the forces of darkness of their locations, hence returning them to play. Of course, that tack also requires adding a way to gain the Sages' assistance during the first part of the battle.

Admittedly, I'm also a little more fond of villains whose flip mechanic isn't tied to 'punch them until their HP crosses a line'. But that's just me.


Ok, I see. I'll admit it could be nice to have the Sages more involved in the battle. My main concern is doing so while keeping the wording to a minimum...

Also, I see where you're coming from with the "punch them until their HP crosses a line" comment, and I'll agree that I enjoy more creative uses of the flip mechanic. In this case though, it was a conscious decision to make him "transform" when he gets beaten up, a two-stage boss just like in the video games.

Thanks for the comment!
 
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Dennison Milenkaya
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Why so many Medallions of the Forest?

If the Sages are placed below the villain, his damage output on that card face can be "X, where X = the number of Sages under this card." This makes him start stronger in a 5-hero game (X = 4), and strengthen further as Sages are lost. Incidentally, it gives players incentive to rescue the Sages.

I've been using "Indestructible while HP is greater than 0" on one of my customs and it works well. I second the suggestion.

You may want to add the Ally keyword to the Sages to clarify that heroes won't harm them when damaging all villain targets or non-hero targets. Otherwise Tempest kills all of them pretty fast. Ally would make them considered hero (not villain) targets.

If not, then please change the Anenome (sp) to react to hero targets damaging the villain or a Boss, so it doesn't trigger off a hero striking a Sage.

You really like leaning on your period key. Not every sentence needs to trail off.
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Matthew Bishop
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FlatOnHisFace wrote:
You may want to add the Ally keyword to the Sages to clarify that heroes won't harm them when damaging all villain targets or non-hero targets.
Out of curiosity, where is this definition coming from? I've never seen it in official rules, which would imply you need to define it somewhere in the deck or rely on people reading extraneous comments about how you intend it to work.
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Dennison Milenkaya
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I dunno. The villain card seems a handy place to put it. But Limited, Villain, and indestructible are all defined off-card. It isn't without precedent.
 
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Take Walker
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Could always have the Sages be immune to hero damage.
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Dérek Boily
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FlatOnHisFace wrote:
Why so many Medallions of the Forest?


"ctrl-c, ctrl-v" typo. Many cards are gonna have their names changed anyway, but thanks for pointing it out!

FlatOnHisFace wrote:
If the Sages are placed below the villain, his damage output on that card face can be "X, where X = the number of Sages under this card." This makes him start stronger in a 5-hero game (X = 4), and strengthen further as Sages are lost. Incidentally, it gives players incentive to rescue the Sages.


That idea I like a lot! It would be a pretty good way to both scale the game according to the number of player and also a solid way of putting pressure on the players. Noted!

FlatOnHisFace wrote:
I've been using "Indestructible while HP is greater than 0" on one of my customs and it works well. I second the suggestion.


Yup, will do.

FlatOnHisFace wrote:
You may want to add the Ally keyword to the Sages to clarify that heroes won't harm them when damaging all villain targets or non-hero targets. Otherwise Tempest kills all of them pretty fast. Ally would make them considered hero (not villain) targets.

If not, then please change the Anenome (sp) to react to hero targets damaging the villain or a Boss, so it doesn't trigger off a hero striking a Sage.


Probably a good idea for the anemone, yes. On the other hand, making villain cards hero targets exclusively either takes a lot of wording (if you want to stick to official wording) or requires some other creative solution. Not sure about the need for the Ally keyword, since the Sage keyword is already exclusive to these 7 cards.

FlatOnHisFace wrote:
You really like leaning on your period key. Not every sentence needs to trail off.


Haha, sorry about that, I'm not used to people reading what I write...!
 
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Dérek Boily
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TakeWalker wrote:
Could always have the Sages be immune to hero damage.


Well that was easy...!

In fact, not making them immune to hero damage was to discourage AoE damage. I realize it might not be necessary though.

 
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Dennison Milenkaya
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I never thought it as simple as that. You run into the same problems of Rook City's detective and forensic specialist. Doc Medico, Starlight, and Eirelle cannot heal them; their healing is based on (theoretical) damage dealt. Hardly makes 'em seem friendly! "Sorry, chap. Not helping you!"

You may discourage area effect damage by making the Sages vulnerable, but that detracts from selective area damage (Tempest, others) whereas making them blanketly immune to hero damage protects them from area effects intended to hit all (Skyscraper, Haka, Nightmist, Sabra, Corrupted Legacy).

A simple keyword doesn't involve much (or any, really) text space.

But hey, that's how suggestions work. Do what you like.
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Matthew Bishop
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Faceontoast wrote:
One possbile suggestion is put the Sages into a seperate deck like the Title Cards in Karga Warfang and fill out the actual deck to 25 cards.
Interestingly, if the card spoiler sheet's numbers are right, Kismet's talisman (a character card) deducts from her 25-card total, but the Ennead's extra character cards do not.

If you don't want to discourage hero AoE (which doesn't matter IMO, plenty of villains produce wildly different incentives for and against it already...usually for), I think "Sages are immune to damage dealt by hero targets" on the villain rule card would be the least words/most straightforward.
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Dérek Boily
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tosx wrote:
Faceontoast wrote:
One possbile suggestion is put the Sages into a seperate deck like the Title Cards in Karga Warfang and fill out the actual deck to 25 cards.
Interestingly, if the card spoiler sheet's numbers are right, Kismet's talisman (a character card) deducts from her 25-card total, but the Ennead's extra character cards do not.

If you don't want to discourage hero AoE (which doesn't matter IMO, plenty of villains produce wildly different incentives for and against it already...usually for), I think "Sages are immune to damage dealt by hero targets" on the villain rule card would be the least words/most straightforward.


Yup, I had Kismet's Talisman in mind when thinking about the Sage cards, hence why I thought making them part of the 25 cards total would make sense.

Adding "Sages are immune to damage dealt by hero targets" on the villain character card is what I was going to go with.
 
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Dérek Boily
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FlatOnHisFace wrote:
I never thought it as simple as that. You run into the same problems of Rook City's detective and forensic specialist. Doc Medico, Starlight, and Eirelle cannot heal them; their healing is based on (theoretical) damage dealt. Hardly makes 'em seem friendly! "Sorry, chap. Not helping you!"

You may discourage area effect damage by making the Sages vulnerable, but that detracts from selective area damage (Tempest, others) whereas making them blanketly immune to hero damage protects them from area effects intended to hit all (Skyscraper, Haka, Nightmist, Sabra, Corrupted Legacy).


Yeah those kind of situations might come out as thematically weird, but I guess the wording/rules exceptions and clarifications would just make the game more fiddly for the benefit it would bring.

FlatOnHisFace wrote:
A simple keyword doesn't involve much (or any, really) text space.

But hey, that's how suggestions work. Do what you like.


Only the required rules to define the meaning of the keyword, but I'll agree it is most of the times an elegant way of applying an effect to several cards at the same time. I really like all the suggestions I've received, it's very encouraging!
 
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J Sinnett
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MrLeRobot wrote:
Also note that Kaargra has a title deck of 10 cards, but her deck is actually 15 cards (plus 2 setup cards), for 25 cards total. It is possible >G had the titles be aprt of her deck originally, but it had to change for some reason or another. Might just be an economic decision too...


Speaking as a GTG playtester, the earliest version of Kaargra that we were given was already at 15 and 10.

MrLeRobot wrote:

Ok, I see. I'll admit it could be nice to have the Sages more involved in the battle. My main concern is doing so while keeping the wording to a minimum...

Also, I see where you're coming from with the "punch them until their HP crosses a line" comment, and I'll agree that I enjoy more creative uses of the flip mechanic. In this case though, it was a conscious decision to make him "transform" when he gets beaten up, a two-stage boss just like in the video games.


OK, a new proposal, then, to work from here. This one comes in three parts. Sages, Guardian of the Desert, and Wish from a Wicked Heart.

Sages:

1: Sages are Ennead-style Character Cards, not part of the 25-card deck. This has a number of benefits, as you'll see a little bit later. Their front-side text boxes do not include the rules that cover Sages overall; instead there is a card labelled 'Ancient Temple' that includes their rules, akin to the Safe House, Shrine of the Ennead, Bloodsworn Colosseum, or Crowd's Favor cards. Each Sage instead has, on their front text box, how to claim that Sage into a Hero play area, and 'When this card is in a Hero's play area, that Hero gains:'

2: Sages are Indestructible. This prevents a *lot* of hijinks that could potentially wreck this particular proposal, including End of Days and Unforgiving Wasteland.

3: Sages are immune to damage dealt by Hero Targets. The environment might still hit them, but the Heroes never will.

4: Sages are not Villain Targets. They become Hero Targets when in Hero play areas, but are never Villain Targets.

5: When Sages enter Hero play areas, they are restored to their full health.

6: When a Sage would be reduced to 0 or fewer HP and is a Hero Target, instead restore it to 5 HP and move it to the Ancient Temple play area. When a Sage would be reduced to 0 or fewer HP and is not a Hero Target, flip that Sage's character card instead.

7: Reverse side of Sages is still a Character Card, but no longer a target; instead they gain the keyword 'Captured' in the same way that the Ennead have 'Incapacitated', and their text box includes the instructions for how to rescue them. Rescuing a Captured Sage flips their character card to the front and restores them to full HP, but leaves them in the Ancient Temple play area.

Guardian of the Desert:

1: Change setup box to "At the start of the game, put The King of Evil's character cards in play, Guardian of the Desert side up. Put Floating Fortress into play in the Villain play area. Put the Ancient Temple into play in the center of the table, in its own play area. Put Heir to the Temple and 6-(H) random Sages into play next to the Ancient Temple, target side up. Put the remaining Sages into play, Captured side up."

2: Increase the King's HP to at least 60. There's a good reason for this.

3: The King of Evil is immune to damage that would reduce him below 30 health. Note that this change does mean that the Sages can't have rescue/acquire be triggered by dealing actual damage to the King of Evil, but triggers that say 'When a Hero Target would deal X damage to the King of Evil, instead X'. Very important - Not 'When The King of Evil would be dealt', it's 'When a Hero Target would deal'. One is affected by immunity, one is not.

4: Alternate game over condition is changed to 'If all seven Sages are ever Captured at the same time, the heroes lose. Game over.'

5: The flip mechanic is changed to: "At the Start of the Villain Turn, if all seven Sages are in Hero play areas, flip The King of Evil's character cards."

Wish from a Wicked Heart:

1: The King's max HP on this side is 30 higher than on the other side. If he's 60 as Guardian, he's 90 over here.

2: First line of Game Play is changed to "When this card is flipped to this side, The King of Evil regains 30 health."

3: Damage dealt to Sages is increased by 1.

4: Villain Targets are still put into play, but now the King deals an instance of damage when they come into play, as well.

5: Damage dealt to The King of Evil is reduced by 1 for each Sage that is Captured.
 
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Dennison Milenkaya
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Sages are hero targets, not villain targets, is less wordy and handles all situations more properly than Sages are immune to damage dealt by hero targets.

"Freedom fighters of Dok'Thorath! Repel the villainous invaders!"

"What about the heroes, sir?"

"They're here to assist us. Do not fire on hero targets!"

"Aye, sir."

* Later *

"Report."

"Sir, we've shelled all the Thorathians and evil-doers. Lots of enemy casualties."

"But what's this? All those losses were allies of the heroes that're helping us."

"Meh. They weren't hero targets. Screw 'em."
 
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J Sinnett
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The intent isn't 'Are always Hero targets', though. The intent in my suggestion is quite literally 'They are not Villain Targets, not Environment Targets, and only become Hero Targets when in a Hero Play Area, but the Heroes still won't hit them'.

My idea here is that as long as they're in the Ancient Temple, they're mostly untouchable unless something is specifically trying to hit them or something is AOE enough to hit multiple target types. Non-Environment, Non-Villain, Non-Hero, and All Targets will hit them. All Environment, All Hero, and All Villain will not.

As soon as they enter a Hero Play Area, though, they're not protected from the forces of darkness by being in the Temple, so they become more susceptible to enemy attack, until they're forced to retreat.
 
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