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Vinhos Deluxe Edition» Forums » Rules

Subject: 2-Player Scoring and Some Clarifications Needed rss

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Ant Lab Games
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Finally was able to get this beauty to the table and get through a full 2-player game. For the most part, I feel that we have be able to get a firm grasp of the rules and really enjoyed the game. However, when it came to the fair scoring, the 2-player rules seem to really penalize the losing player (me in all 3 fairs).

I think over the course of the 3 fairs, the dispersion between 1st VP reward and 3rd VP reward (which are used in the 2-player game) add up to almost 30 points. To me this seemed very hard to recover from. Has anyone else experienced this?

On a different note, we noticed that during a year with a wine fair, if a player chose to do a press release he/she would immediately score the tasting with 1 wine from their cellar. However, the player that does not opt to select press release gets to take advantage of the aging and harvest prior to the fair. Is this intentional? In a 2-player game it is almost not worth taking a press release as there is minimal competition for booth slots.

Thanks,
Anthony
 
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mfl134
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labaran wrote:
Finally was able to get this beauty to the table and get through a full 2-player game. For the most part, I feel that we have be able to get a firm grasp of the rules and really enjoyed the game. However, when it came to the fair scoring, the 2-player rules seem to really penalize the losing player (me in all 3 fairs).

I think over the course of the 3 fairs, the dispersion between 1st VP reward and 3rd VP reward (which are used in the 2-player game) add up to almost 30 points. To me this seemed very hard to recover from. Has anyone else experienced this?


6pts then 8pts then 10pts (so 24 pts) but if you were losing at the wine fair, you should have had some advantage elsewhere. Were you ahead in other areas?

Quote:
On a different note, we noticed that during a year with a wine fair, if a player chose to do a press release he/she would immediately score the tasting with 1 wine from their cellar. However, the player that does not opt to select press release gets to take advantage of the aging and harvest prior to the fair. Is this intentional? In a 2-player game it is almost not worth taking a press release as there is minimal competition for booth slots.

Thanks,
Anthony


going to the wine fair also gets you access to barrels and can make you first player.

(I'm assuming your plays were with the 2016 vintage, but my answer would be very similar with 2010 vintage)

in the 2010 vintage, sending barrels to the various magnates (or whatever they call called) estabilishes a relationship with them which allows you to give them wines for extra actions or extra scoring opportunities. the game is very tight on actions, so setting up these opportunities is important.

(I do agree that later in the game, you are likely to take the free wine fair action)
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Meghan Naxer
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labaran wrote:
Finally was able to get this beauty to the table and get through a full 2-player game. For the most part, I feel that we have be able to get a firm grasp of the rules and really enjoyed the game. However, when it came to the fair scoring, the 2-player rules seem to really penalize the losing player (me in all 3 fairs).

I think over the course of the 3 fairs, the dispersion between 1st VP reward and 3rd VP reward (which are used in the 2-player game) add up to almost 30 points. To me this seemed very hard to recover from. Has anyone else experienced this?


I recently played a 2-player game over the weekend (though this isn't a new game to us as we loved our 1st edition also). I also lost all 3 wine fairs, but only finished 9 points behind the other player (and could have won if I had made a few different decisions). I think it is definitely doable to win without the fair, even in a 2-player game, by focusing on exports and end-game magnate scoring.

labaran wrote:
On a different note, we noticed that during a year with a wine fair, if a player chose to do a press release he/she would immediately score the tasting with 1 wine from their cellar. However, the player that does not opt to select press release gets to take advantage of the aging and harvest prior to the fair. Is this intentional? In a 2-player game it is almost not worth taking a press release as there is minimal competition for booth slots.


Keep in mind that you only score the depicted features during the wine fair (in the 2010 reserve version), so if you want to try to get ahead by choosing the features that are in demand, it may be useful to do a press release early. The press release can also be a way to deny the other player from scoring optimally or deny them a bonus they really need, like cash or experts.

Actions in this game are so valuable, so if someone is going hardcore for fair points, find other ways to score big. Hope that helps!
 
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Bob D
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A lot to unpack here but I'll try to keep it simple:

1) Not winning any fairs definitely makes for a difficult road to victory. Why should it be any less? That being said, it can be done.

2) Issuing a press release early can be both good and bad. It is bad because you go in first which gives the other player(s) more information with which to try and win the fair. However, going in early lets you take advantage of whatever the connoisseur conditions are -- if the weather is bad, they won't want as high quality. Or they may want wine from one of your regions where they may not if you wait and the year changes. In addition, it's the only way to get barrels. If you want to get barrels early so you can use them --- for example, selling locally for money or exporting to the foreign markets and then pulling one back for further use using the expert) -- entering the fair is the only way to do it.

This game is a euro but it isn't multi-player solitaire where you can pick your path and ignore what everyone else is doing. If you aren't competitive in the wine fair, it's going to be a struggle. You can still win but it'll take skillful play to do so.

EDIT: This refers to the 2016 version but the 2010 is largely the same except you are PLACING barrels rather than retrieving them.
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Ant Lab Games
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Thanks for all of the responses! It was really a learning playthrough, so I certainly was not playing to any specific strategy. In the end I lost by about 12 points, which wasn't terrible. I finished by taking a lot of multiplier tiles at the final fair.

I just thought the fair scoring for 2-player seemed harsh, but I suppose that's the price you pay for not going all in at the fairs.

For clarity, I am playing the 2016 rules and have never played the 2010.

I really do enjoy this game and want to be sure I have a firm grasp on some of the rules. I guess the next step is to just play again!
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Byron Brown
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I do agree that the fair scoring in the 2 player game is harsh, in the sense that the 2nd place player loses big whether he loses by 1 point or by 20 points on the fair track. He has to win at least one fair to keep it sort of balanced. In my game, one player got a big early lead during the first fair, meaning it would require a mammoth effort for the other player to come back in the 2nd and 3rd fairs....not impossible, but clearly would have required winning the fair to become the focus of the game with no guarantee that he would have caught his opponent.

However, despite the huge advantage gained by the player winning the fairs, the other player won the game by getting the money multiplier tile at the end of the game. He picked tiles first after the last fair, and could have won big points with either the money tile or the farmer tile, but the money tile would have also been big for his opponent, while his opponent only had two farmers.
 
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mfl134
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labaran wrote:
Thanks for all of the responses! It was really a learning playthrough, so I certainly was not playing to any specific strategy. In the end I lost by about 12 points, which wasn't terrible. I finished by taking a lot of multiplier tiles at the final fair.

I just thought the fair scoring for 2-player seemed harsh, but I suppose that's the price you pay for not going all in at the fairs.

For clarity, I am playing the 2016 rules and have never played the 2010.

I really do enjoy this game and want to be sure I have a firm grasp on some of the rules. I guess the next step is to just play again!


One variant you could do with the fair (if you don't like the big spread of points) is to create a scale of how many points the 2nd place person gets based on how far behind they are. The goal would be the mimic how playing like you are playing would have scored in a multiplayer game.

So: (for example)
- if you lose by 1 or 2 fair points, take 2nd place.
- if you lose by 3 to 5 fair points, take 3rd place.
- if you lose by 6 or more fair points, take 4th place.

obviously you would want to calibrate these numbers and they might need to vary based on 1st/2nd/3rd fair.

Alternatively, you could do something like awarding 1st and 2nd, but at the end of the game, you get points equal to your wine fair score. (but this would make the game focus more heavily on the wine fair.)


The point is the something needs to be done to punish somebody for minimally participating in the wine fair. 1st vs 3rd gets the job done, but you could experiment with other things if they are more to your liking.
 
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Ant Lab Games
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mfl134 wrote:


One variant you could do with the fair (if you don't like the big spread of points) is to create a scale of how many points the 2nd place person gets based on how far behind they are. The goal would be the mimic how playing like you are playing would have scored in a multiplayer game.

So: (for example)
- if you lose by 1 or 2 fair points, take 2nd place.
- if you lose by 3 to 5 fair points, take 3rd place.
- if you lose by 6 or more fair points, take 4th place.

obviously you would want to calibrate these numbers and they might need to vary based on 1st/2nd/3rd fair.

Alternatively, you could do something like awarding 1st and 2nd, but at the end of the game, you get points equal to your wine fair score. (but this would make the game focus more heavily on the wine fair.)


The point is the something needs to be done to punish somebody for minimally participating in the wine fair. 1st vs 3rd gets the job done, but you could experiment with other things if they are more to your liking.


All good suggestions. I plan to play at least 2 more times before I decide whether or not to implement a variant. I just wanted to make a sanity check on the scoring before I played again. Thanks!
 
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