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Star Trek: Ascendancy» Forums » Rules

Subject: Retreat only possible after first round of Space Combat rss

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Andrew Jordan
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Space Combat states that retreat is only an option after the first round of combat. What if you want to surrender and retreat before a Space Combat?

For example, you both agree you don't want to fight, but you want the rival out of your sector (on your turn NOW). If you could initiate Space Combat and allow him to tactically retreat, problem solved. But according to the rules you MUST fight that first round, take casualties, and then allow the option to retreat.

Thoughts anyone?
 
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John Lucas
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That sounds like every TNG encounter with the Romulans ever. Do the rules support it?
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James J

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The rules are definitely against it, so you'd have to house rule it. At my table, I wouldn't allow it, though. It's basically gaming the system to allow a free out-of-turn move for the defending player.

There is a Romulan Advancement that allows them to cancel combat and warp away, and I believe one of the Ferengi cards/fleets allows something similar. So allowing someone to do it for free, when others have to pay for it, wouldn't be fair. Just my opinion.
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Igor Horvat
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I would allow it.

Imagine klingon fleet of 10 ships entering a system with only one federation ship.

They would allow it to flee because it would be dishonorable to destroy one pathetic ship. Hell, for roleplaying reasons Klingons could even lose a culture token for destroying it.

I see no reason to come in firing when display of force is enough.
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Angelus Seniores
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i would not allow it for the simple reason that it makes it impossible to pin down/attack an enemy fleet if they can retreat whenever they want.

players would always only ever accept combat when in their favor which would create weird stalemate situations and would often choose to not defend their planets, while in reality such behaviour would be seen as cowardly/unacceptable by their people.
there can also be practical reasons on how the enemy cornered the fleet to make a hasty retreat impossible but cant be represented in the game as it is.

already the game allows you to "hide" your ships by putting them at warp in your turn so you can avoid combat with weak fleets/ships if you want to but it does use commands.

the idea of the game is for it to be fast-paced with no stalemates, remember that achieving ascendancy is like a ticking clock, once an opponent is getting culture faster than you, you have to do something about it or will lose, and not allowing pre-combat retreat is in line with that, also given the timeframe of a turn, there's plenty of time to chase and catch up with a fleet eventually.
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Donald Jensen

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Angelsenior wrote:
i would not allow it for the simple reason that it makes it impossible to pin down/attack an enemy fleet if they can retreat whenever they want.

I agree with this. In fact I would go even farther to say that the Romulans need to do a 5 research project to get this exact ability. The Advanced Cloaking Device allows them to choose to flee from an attacker and by doing so, the attacker gets their expended command token back. If what the OP is suggesting were allowed, the Advanced Cloaking Device would be inferior because it gives the attacker back the command.

This also then makes the "one ship in each sector to slow down aggressors" tactic even better as you get to retreat in front of them while collecting the buffer ships together for the final defensive stand, costing the attacking player a lot of commands in the process.
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Donald Jensen

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Horwath wrote:
I would allow it.

Imagine klingon fleet of 10 ships entering a system with only one federation ship.

They would allow it to flee because it would be dishonorable to destroy one pathetic ship. Hell, for roleplaying reasons Klingons could even lose a culture token for destroying it.

I see no reason to come in firing when display of force is enough.

I disagree. If you watch the shows and movies, the Klingons have never expressed reluctance for an overwhelming force destroying a significantly smaller force.
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Andrew Jordan
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DrakosDJ wrote:
Angelsenior wrote:
i would not allow it for the simple reason that it makes it impossible to pin down/attack an enemy fleet if they can retreat whenever they want.

I agree with this. In fact I would go even farther to say that the Romulans need to do a 5 research project to get this exact ability. The Advanced Cloaking Device allows them to choose to flee from an attacker and by doing so, the attacker gets their expended command token back. If what the OP is suggesting were allowed, the Advanced Cloaking Device would be inferior because it gives the attacker back the command.

This also then makes the "one ship in each sector to slow down aggressors" tactic even better as you get to retreat in front of them while collecting the buffer ships together for the final defensive stand, costing the attacking player a lot of commands in the process.


Some excellent points! Hadn't thought of it this way. I was caught up thinking about it from the viewpoint of two rivals at peace, not at war.
 
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Marc Bennett
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andyjobo wrote:
DrakosDJ wrote:
Angelsenior wrote:
i would not allow it for the simple reason that it makes it impossible to pin down/attack an enemy fleet if they can retreat whenever they want.

I agree with this. In fact I would go even farther to say that the Romulans need to do a 5 research project to get this exact ability. The Advanced Cloaking Device allows them to choose to flee from an attacker and by doing so, the attacker gets their expended command token back. If what the OP is suggesting were allowed, the Advanced Cloaking Device would be inferior because it gives the attacker back the command.

This also then makes the "one ship in each sector to slow down aggressors" tactic even better as you get to retreat in front of them while collecting the buffer ships together for the final defensive stand, costing the attacking player a lot of commands in the process.


Some excellent points! Hadn't thought of it this way. I was caught up thinking about it from the viewpoint of two rivals at peace, not at war.


well i wouldnt totally be against it as a variant where the attacker can allow a retreat before the first round it opens up some diplomatic space, however i wouldnt allow the klingons to allow people to retreat just thematically.
 
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David Jones
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Angelsenior wrote:
i would not allow it for the simple reason that it makes it impossible to pin down/attack an enemy fleet if they can retreat whenever they want.


This is not a valid argument. Re-read the OP. He specifically stated that both partys would agree to the retreat. The OP isn't advocating that a player can retreat whenever they want, only that they can retreat without combat if allowed by the aggressor.
 
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Leigh Caple
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davypi wrote:
Angelsenior wrote:
i would not allow it for the simple reason that it makes it impossible to pin down/attack an enemy fleet if they can retreat whenever they want.


This is not a valid argument. Re-read the OP. He specifically stated that both partys would agree to the retreat. The OP isn't advocating that a player can retreat whenever they want, only that they can retreat without combat if allowed by the aggressor.


It IS a valid argument in my view. This is a 3 player game and doing this would allow the 2 players involved to save on Command tokens at the 'expense' of the third player.
 
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David Jones
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Leighbob wrote:
davypi wrote:
Angelsenior wrote:
i would not allow it for the simple reason that it makes it impossible to pin down/attack an enemy fleet if they can retreat whenever they want.


This is not a valid argument. Re-read the OP. He specifically stated that both partys would agree to the retreat. The OP isn't advocating that a player can retreat whenever they want, only that they can retreat without combat if allowed by the aggressor.


It IS a valid argument in my view. This is a 3 player game and doing this would allow the 2 players involved to save on Command tokens at the 'expense' of the third player.


No, that is a new argument. The argument I quoted was about not being able to pin down a target if they can retreat at will. It had nothing to do with command tokens or the potential imbalance to the third player. You've changed the argument and its one I'm willing to accept not having enough experience with the game yet. Angel's argument is still invalid as it misinterprets one of the OP's axioms.
 
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Craig S.
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I'm not even sure what the discussion is anymore...but since there has never been an actual rules question involved in this thread at all, it seems to me that it doesn't even belong in this forum. It would be better suited to the variants forum.

The rules are crystal clear. The option to retreat comes at the end of every combat round. There is no chance for anyone to retreat before one round of combat has been fought.
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Angelus Seniores
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davypi wrote:
Angelsenior wrote:
i would not allow it for the simple reason that it makes it impossible to pin down/attack an enemy fleet if they can retreat whenever they want.


This is not a valid argument. Re-read the OP. He specifically stated that both partys would agree to the retreat. The OP isn't advocating that a player can retreat whenever they want, only that they can retreat without combat if allowed by the aggressor.


You should actually reread the OP, he only talks about both parties agreeing in his example, not in his initial statement ie that agreement is only one possible case scenario but not necessarily always the case.
 
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Marc Bennett
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Angelsenior wrote:
davypi wrote:
Angelsenior wrote:
i would not allow it for the simple reason that it makes it impossible to pin down/attack an enemy fleet if they can retreat whenever they want.


This is not a valid argument. Re-read the OP. He specifically stated that both partys would agree to the retreat. The OP isn't advocating that a player can retreat whenever they want, only that they can retreat without combat if allowed by the aggressor.


You should actually reread the OP, he only talks about both parties agreeing in his example, not in his initial statement ie that agreement is only one possible case scenario but not necessarily always the case.

his example was directly related to initial statement as a way to explain what he was talking about. not a possible scenario out of several.
 
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