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Subject: Mast area full vs attacks by activated group of pirates rss

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Jens Larsen
Denmark
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Hey,

This just struck me while playing a solo “right hand vs left hand” game of the scenario "Hunting the Tigress".

Say a mast area is full/occupied by Belit and three of her guards. In an adjacent area, three pirates of the same color group become activated. In this case, if the first pirate succeeds in killing one of Belit's guards, neither of the other two pirates are able to attack.

How so?

The Overlord’s Book says:

“When a unit attacks, all units in that group lose their remaining movement points.”

So because movement comes before attack for all Overlord figures, and once the first pirate kills a guard, the mast area is no longer full/occupied. So to reach the figures inside, the other two pirates will have to move into the area. Which they can't, because all movement of an activated group must happen before any of them can attack.

Do I have this right?
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Craig K
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That seems to be correct yes.
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si Mon
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cおっっcorrect but note that your right hand (overlord) can spend gem (one per figure) to move one more time
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Craig K
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Valid point I had forgotten that.
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yuffie kasiragi
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The problem is not moving, but that there is not enough space in that tile before you kill 1 of the guards.

So even if the OL moves 1 unit ti still cant attack afterwards, which is a small boost to command Belit.
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Jens Larsen
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Yep, I just did that. It allowed a tactic where when only the three heroes were left, Zapovaro would - at great gem expense - place himself in the aftmost "leap 1" area on the port side of the Tigress, and the pirates would leap over. Then the Overlord spent one extra gem to get one pirate inside to attack Belit. And then the rest of the surviving pirates would attack from outside the full/occupied mast area, enjoying the added benefit of re-rolling due to Zapovaro's skill.

But it still isn't enough. The one time Belit was pressed, there were simply not gems enough available to the Overlord to be able to launch an effective attack.

All this makes me wonder if the mast areas are actually not supposed to be safe from ranged attacks. If they are *not* safe, that would put another kind of pressure on the heroes, who would suddenly be forced to take the archers seriously. And the would no longer be able to rely on a siege strategy in which they can camly outlast the attackers. They might choose to jump to the enemy ship to get rid of the archers, leaving Belit more vulnerable, etc etc.

It's 1 AM here now, so I think I will try that out tomorrow...
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Ville Pynnönen
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I have understood that the mast areas themselves are NOT safe from ranged attacks, but block line of sight if you stand behind them.
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Jens Larsen
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cldron wrote:
I have understood that the mast areas themselves are NOT safe from ranged attacks, but block line of sight if you stand behind them.


That would make the most sense in a fictional sense as well. But what is "behind" a mast?

The game's rules for line of sight simply says that a line from the attacker's area's line of sight point (hereafter LOSP) to the LOSP of the target's area must be unbroken by certain imagery in the maps, like walls, doors, masts and such.

In the pict village it is fairly easy (discounting some greenery that may or may not be tall enough to block LOS). But in the ships map, for the masts, the LOSP is inside the imagery that is blocking LOS. So since the LOS from any other LOSP on the map will hit the blocking imagery before the mast area's LOSP, they anyone - behind the mast or not - is protected from ranged attacks.
- Even if there were enemy units with ranged fire surrounding the mast area. - Even if the area is full/occupied with targets.

If they wanted to make it possible for a single not too large-based figure standing behind a mast to be protected from ranged attack from the othere ship, I believe they should have simply created such a small area on the side of the masts opposite the enemy ship. Or maybe four such areas around all the masts.

As it is, with the rules for LOS and how the mast areas' LOSP are placed, I think this map may be broken, or maybe just the scenario. I don't know.

Two things I want to try:
1) Play with the masts offering no cover.
2) Play with the masts offering cover to just one figure inside the mast area.
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Stephan Beal
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Uthin wrote:
All this makes me wonder if the mast areas are actually not supposed to be safe from ranged attacks. If they are *not* safe, that would put another kind of pressure on the heroes, who would suddenly be forced to take the archers seriously. And the would no longer be able to rely on a siege strategy in which they can camly outlast the attackers. They might choose to jump to the enemy ship to get rid of the archers, leaving Belit more vulnerable, etc etc.


Player Pallantides, who was involved with playtesting, said in another thread that one may freely shoot into or out of a mast space, but not through the mast to another space. While i fundamentally feel (because of the wording of the LOS rules and the placement of the mast LOS dots) that one should be able to "hide" in the mast space, doing so completely breaks this scenario, making it effectively impossible for the Overlord to win. Thus i'm inclined to accept his interpretation of it.
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Frank BLACKFIRE
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sgbeal wrote:
Thus i'm inclined to accept his interpretation of it.

Thx


Some words from another thread :

When you activate an Overlord tile, you ALWAYS have to move your troops or creature with the basis movement point BEFORE doing the attacks.

You can pay extra movement points before the attacks paying 1 gem per movement point and per miniature.

Once done, you play the attacks of each miniature. After the attacks you still can spend more gems for extra move (1 gem per movement point and per miniature).

If you have done attacks with miniatures who have not moved before the attacks, you can't use basis movement points. You can only pay extra movement points with gems.
 
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Pieter Vreeburg
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I posted the following in the other thread regarding LOS and the ships's masts. A slight rephrasing of the LOS rule seems to solve the problem:

pietervreeburg wrote:
I added the word 'THROUGH' to the rule regarding LOS. The rule reads now as follows: "To determine line of sight, trace an imaginary line from the [dot symbol] in the attacker's area to the [dot symbol] in the chosen enemy's area. If this line crosses THROUGH an obstacle shown on the board (...), the line is blocked and that area is not in the attacker's line of sight". When phrased this way the LOS rule seems to work well in the ships map, e.g. fire from and to the mast areas, but not through the masts. This edit in the LOS rule does not seems to break anything in the other maps.
 
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Jens Larsen
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pietervreeburg wrote:
I posted the following in the other thread regarding LOS and the ships's masts. A slight rephrasing of the LOS rule seems to solve the problem:

pietervreeburg wrote:
I added the word 'THROUGH' to the rule regarding LOS. The rule reads now as follows: "To determine line of sight, trace an imaginary line from the [dot symbol] in the attacker's area to the [dot symbol] in the chosen enemy's area. If this line crosses THROUGH an obstacle shown on the board (...), the line is blocked and that area is not in the attacker's line of sight". When phrased this way the LOS rule seems to work well in the ships map, e.g. fire from and to the mast areas, but not through the masts. This edit in the LOS rule does not seems to break anything in the other maps.


If I understand you correctly and if I am measuring correctly, of the two areas in which the Bossonian Archers start the leftmost pair of archers have LOS to any area behind a mast on the Tigress. The rightmost pair do not have LOS to one area behind the leftmost mast. And that is easily fixed when activating them by moving them to the same area as the leftmost pair, effectively negating the LOS-blocking effect of the mast areas entirely. So basically Bêlit has nowhere to hide.

I just finished a solo game, and it was a much closer race between the two sides. If the heroes had not found two life potions for Bêlit, I think the Overlord would have won. So this is how I will be playing the scenario for now.

But I think it is strange. The swashbuckler in me *wants* the masts to have an effect. But I don't want the effect to break any scenario relying on the threat of ranged attacks.

I hope this will be discussed in an upcoming FAQ by Monolith.
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Jens Larsen
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Pallantides wrote:
After the attacks you still can spend more gems for extra move (1 gem per movement point and per miniature).


[Aha!-moment]

I thought that all of a units' movement would have to be concluded before attacking. But re-reading p. 8 in The Overlord's Book I see that it only goes for the "free" movement points.

Thanks! I hadn't caught that!

[/Aha!-moment]
 
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Pieter Vreeburg
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Uthin wrote:
pietervreeburg wrote:
I posted the following in the other thread regarding LOS and the ships's masts. A slight rephrasing of the LOS rule seems to solve the problem:

pietervreeburg wrote:
I added the word 'THROUGH' to the rule regarding LOS. The rule reads now as follows: "To determine line of sight, trace an imaginary line from the [dot symbol] in the attacker's area to the [dot symbol] in the chosen enemy's area. If this line crosses THROUGH an obstacle shown on the board (...), the line is blocked and that area is not in the attacker's line of sight". When phrased this way the LOS rule seems to work well in the ships map, e.g. fire from and to the mast areas, but not through the masts. This edit in the LOS rule does not seems to break anything in the other maps.


If I understand you correctly and if I am measuring correctly, of the two areas in which the Bossonian Archers start the leftmost pair of archers have LOS to any area behind a mast on the Tigress. The rightmost pair do not have LOS to one area behind the leftmost mast. And that is easily fixed when activating them by moving them to the same area as the leftmost pair, effectively negating the LOS-blocking effect of the mast areas entirely. So basically Bêlit has nowhere to hide.

I just finished a solo game, and it was a much closer race between the two sides. If the heroes had not found two life potions for Bêlit, I think the Overlord would have won. So this is how I will be playing the scenario for now.

But I think it is strange. The swashbuckler in me *wants* the masts to have an effect. But I don't want the effect to break any scenario relying on the threat of ranged attacks.

I hope this will be discussed in an upcoming FAQ by Monolith.


I am with you there, it would be very cinematic to have a hero hide behind a mast, have the enemies pop a couple of arrows into the wood, after which the hero jumps from behind the mast to cleave some fools. Maybe a house-rule?
 
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Barry Morgan
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I think I'm going to give a free yellow/orange armour dice to anyone in the area with the mast, before they use any other armour rolls, but after they choose to use a dice to guard.
 
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Stephan Beal
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pietervreeburg wrote:
I am with you there, it would be very cinematic to have a hero hide behind a mast, have the enemies pop a couple of arrows into the wood, after which the hero jumps from behind the mast to cleave some fools. Maybe a house-rule?


i played it that way the 2nd time i played this scenario, and it completely breaks the scenario. If the heroes can hide behind the mast then the OL doesn't stand a chance, especially if the heroes find the crossbow in one of the chests on their own ship (like happened in my game). They hide behind the mast, pop out to rain crossbow fire on the enemy, and hide behind the mast again.
 
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Stephan Beal
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sgbeal wrote:
pietervreeburg wrote:
I am with you there, it would be very cinematic to have a hero hide behind a mast, have the enemies pop a couple of arrows into the wood, after which the hero jumps from behind the mast to cleave some fools. Maybe a house-rule?


i played it that way the 2nd time i played this scenario, and it completely breaks the scenario. If the heroes can hide behind the mast then the OL doesn't stand a chance, especially if the heroes find the crossbow in one of the chests on their own ship (like happened in my game). They hide behind the mast, pop out to rain crossbow fire on the enemy, and hide behind the mast again.


Now that you mention it, however, another option would be for the mast to provide passive defense against ranged fire from other zones, e.g. an armor score of 1 or 2 (but only against ranged fire coming from other zones). It would still be a huge (==imbalancing) benefit for the heroes, though.
 
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