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Subject: is this game too hard for people? rss

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marty hagenhouew
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i aint been posting for long on here but i have been reading the reviews and comments for some time and i can't believe what some people are saying...games are just that, GAMES, they are meant to be fun and an enjoyable repast for a few hours...now regarding Marvel Heroes, which seems to be causing quite a stir on here, quite a lot of people hate the game and a fair number like it and it all seems to boil down to the fact that the game is dificult to grasp and doesn't give the feeling of crash, bang, wallop that is seen in the actual Marvel comic books...i've been a Marvel fan since the tender age of 6 (i'm 43 now!) and i've never lost my love of Spidey and the gang and i couldn't wait to get my hands on the game when i heard it was available. The contents knocked me away, i thought they were beautiful; great figures, nice large gaming board (if a little bland yeah but it did have some cool features such as the locations of Peter Parkers apartment, the Baxter Building, etc, it was just cool looking at it and pointing all these locations out to my kids as we set the game up), 2 lovely illustrated decks of cards and nice thick counters and a bunch of dice (we like dice!)...and a rule book, which is a mjor bone of contention with a lot of people...i sat down and read the rule book in 30 minutes then explained the game play and system to my kids 11,14 and my brother-in-law, 20, then we sat and played a 4 player game, refering to the rule book when we needed to. We made a few mistakes to start with but were up and running in no time and the game was a blast, an absolute blast and we loved it so much we play it every wednesday evening. To date we've clocked up over 30 gaming sessions and never have been bored, we've had 2 player tournaments, 3 player games, 4 player games and we've even expanded the game with our own new team members such as she-hulk, prof X, and a host of others (you'll find the templates in full colour in the downloads section and we've used hero clix figures mounted on large tiddlywink counters). Basically, what i'm trying to say is that with a bit of careful reading, taking the game and playing it as its meant to be played (for a bit of fun!) and not expecting it to create an experience akin to a single comic story but a game encompasing a series of comic book stories and not sitting and comparing it to other games such as war of the ring but as a game in its own right you can really enjoy this game.
is it hard? no, my son is 11 and he picked it up within an hour and continually trashes us all with the x-men...
has it got theme? it oozes theme
has it got re-run value? like i say we've played it 30 times and its a regular ever wednesday evening
is it expandable? we've expanded it ourselves, new heroes, new scenarios
is it comparable to other games? this is a game in its own right, its not a wargame so it's not fair to judge it against other wargames, its a strategy/resource management game, you do have to plan your strategy for a turn and upcoming turns, you have to plan and manage your resources and you have to hope that lady luck smiles upon you when you enter a fight but the odds are weighted for you (as is right for a hero) and it portrays the Marvel universe in a way that hasn't been done before in a boardgame!
this isn't a review so don't slate me for it, it's our two penneth worth (my kids wanted me to write in 'cause they read this forum a lot and their fav' game always seems to be slated).
It has a good system, it's easy to pick up and play, it has theme, it creates some classic moments and it's FUN!
(or are my kids above average IQ? 'cause others seem to have dificulty grasping the mechanics).
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Bill Abner
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Paragraphs.
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Adam Daulton
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Even though I did have a difficult time reading this. I want to play the game now. I had the chance to play it once, passed it up, and have yet to see another copy.
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Tim K
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Nice post Marty. You did a great job explaining why the game appeals to you and your kids, I think others would find this helpful. I too started reading comics at the age of 6 (Amazing Spiderman #115, sweet!) and continue to read them today. Being able to share some of the Marvel Universe with my kids through a board game like this is priceless. They too had no problem with the rules.

One of the first things I learned on BGG was the ratings are very good guidelines, but shouldn't be followed religiously. Just because game A is rated higher than game B, doesn't mean everyone will like game A better. MH has a 7.1 rated, but to me personally it holds much more appeal than games rated much higher. My comic influence probably is the reason why.

Its nice to see both you and your kids reading BGG, don't be afraid to post again in the future.

TK.
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Henrik Lantz
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This is good. I like the game myself and did not agree with the negative comments that have become quite common. For the reviewer this game seems to be close to perfect and thus gives support to the rather obvious conclusion that you never know how much you will like a game until you have tried it. Negative reviews or not.
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Truebeliever, that's a pretty condescending post.

People don't like the game for various reasons. But it's probably not because they have a low IQ, which is what you were intimating.

I'm a comcs fanboy myself, but apart from the painted figures, I found the game fiddly, tedious, and rather boring. And surprisingly, I do not have a low IQ.
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Agustin Kapuno
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out4blood wrote:
Truebeliever, that's a pretty condescending post.

People don't like the game for various reasons. But it's probably not because they have a low IQ, which is what you were intimating.

I'm a comcs fanboy myself, but apart from the painted figures, I found the game fiddly, tedious, and rather boring. And surprisingly, I do not have a low IQ.


I think you are being outrageous in taking the meaning of the post as condescending.
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Nick Szegedi
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If I may add... I also really like this game a lot! In fact, I think this is one of my fav FFGames game to play with (2) players. Like many people, I am hoping for an expansion down the tubes.

Perhaps a DC version will surface. For now, I will continue to enjoy this game and enjoy the Marvel Universe. There are so many possibilites for ugrades/expansions for this GREAT game. I think this game is awesome...but, others will disagree. People are always welcome with their opinions.

The bottom line is... this is what gaming is all about: bringing family/friends together and enjoying each others' company even though 'trash talking' may be involved. (lol)
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Nick Szegedi
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Oh...one more thing: I don't think the rulebook is the "easiest" to understand at first but, as you continue to play and through the help of BGGers, it becomes quite simple to grasp!
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marty hagenhouew
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this post wasn't meant to be a review per se' and it certainly wasn't meant to be condecending, if thats the way it came across i sincerely apologize, it was meant to point out that, yeah, the rule book may come across as fiddly in places but if my 11yr old son can pick it up and play it even when i am not present AND understand the concepts of the system then i don't think its too hard for anybody to grasp. Play the game with the book open beside you, refer to the book when you come across a point thats not really clear but most of all enjoy it and don't get bogged down comparing it to other games.
When this game flows it flows really well and the table chat, conspiring, double dealing that often takes place when it comes to playing villain cards and back-ups to thwart other players plans means everybody is taking part and nobody is ever bored.
Again, my apologies if it came across as condecending, it wasn't meant in that vein.
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Ray
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truebeliever wrote:
(or are my kids above average IQ? 'cause others seem to have difficulty grasping the mechanics).


Some folks buy many, many games a year and play them once or twice each a year. For such folks they want rules on a few sheets of paper that they can get all the rules down and play correctly the first time playing. Likewise these easy to lean strategically deep games have few enough rules that if you mess any single rule up you may ruin the game.

Now contrast to large wargames or other sims. the rules are longer, more chrome fiddly, and easier to miss something with -- but since the game is about dice and fun it probably won't hurt the game that much (and rereading the game before that 3rd, 4th, 5th, or 30th play will eventually get all the rules right).

Its quite a leap from one style to the other. In particular its hard to keep plowing forward on the game without looking for a rule in the rulebook knowing you are playing it wrong -- bad for simple streamlined deep games, but that is what is best to enjoy games that are rich in chrome. That difference in learning approaches IMHO is the difficulty in learning many people refer to (they are trying to get all rules solid for their first playing).

As a litmus test ask yourself if you would feel uneasy knowing you are playing a rule wrong, but deferring the looking up of it until after the game. How uneasy you feel is an indicator of how well you can tolerate fiddly sim rules (which can be overwhelming for that first playing). Get past that uneasiness and a whole different style of simulation games opens up to you.
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Universal Head
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wabner wrote:
Paragraphs.


It's as though he's so excited he can't stop to take a breath!
 
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Andy M
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UniversalHead wrote:
wabner wrote:
Paragraphs.


It's as though he's so excited he can't stop to take a breath!


any possibility of one of your reference sheets for this game?
 
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Universal Head
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Funny you mention that - I just bought it yesterday!! As soon as I get my head around it, and I get the time outside of work deadlines, a reference sheet will of course be forthcoming ...
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Andy M
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fantastic!
 
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MGS
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Thank you foor the write up. I enjoyed it.

Could you please, please EDIT your text to separate the paragraphs? Really!
 
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marty hagenhouew
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ok, ok, i got the message, next time i'll put it all in paragraphs and regarding the excitement! yeah, i was pretty excited about this game 'cause i'm really just a big kid at heart and it is a cool game (that's a direct quote from my 11yr old son...)
 
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If you want, you could still go back and separate the paragraphs.
 
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Nick Szegedi
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Originally posted by:

marty hagenhouew
(truebeliever)

-edited to ease the pain for some...!

I aint been posting for long on here but I have been reading the reviews and comments for some time and I can't believe what some people are saying...games are just that, GAMES, they are meant to be fun and an enjoyable repast for a few hours...now regarding Marvel Heroes, which seems to be causing quite a stir on here, quite a lot of people hate the game and a fair number like it and it all seems to boil down to the fact that the game is dificult to grasp and doesn't give the feeling of crash, bang, wallop that is seen in the actual Marvel comic books

I've been a Marvel fan since the tender age of 6 (i'm 43 now!) and I've never lost my love of Spidey and the gang and i couldn't wait to get my hands on the game when I heard it was available. The contents knocked me away, I thought they were beautiful; great figures, nice large gaming board (if a little bland yeah but it did have some cool features such as the locations of Peter Parkers apartment, the Baxter Building, etc, it was just cool looking at it and pointing all these locations out to my kids as we set the game up), 2 lovely illustrated decks of cards and nice thick counters and a bunch of dice (we like dice!)...and a rule book, which is a mjor bone of contention with a lot of people

I sat down and read the rule book in 30 minutes then explained the game play and system to my kids 11,14 and my brother-in-law, 20, then we sat and played a 4 player game, refering to the rule book when we needed to. We made a few mistakes to start with but were up and running in no time and the game was a blast, an absolute blast and we loved it so much we play it every wednesday evening.

To date, we've clocked up over 30 gaming sessions and never have been bored, we've had 2 player tournaments, 3 player games, 4 player games and we've even expanded the game with our own new team members such as she-hulk, prof X, and a host of others (you'll find the templates in full colour in the downloads section and we've used hero clix figures mounted on large tiddlywink counters). Basically, what i'm trying to say is that with a bit of careful reading, taking the game and playing it as its meant to be played (for a bit of fun!) and not expecting it to create an experience akin to a single comic story but a game encompasing a series of comic book stories and not sitting and comparing it to other games such as war of the ring but as a game in its own right you can really enjoy this game.

Is it hard? no, my son is 11 and he picked it up within an hour and continually trashes us all with the x-men...
has it got theme? it oozes theme
has it got re-run value? like I say we've played it 30 times and its a regular ever wednesday evening
is it expandable? we've expanded it ourselves, new heroes, new scenarios
is it comparable to other games? this is a game in its own right, its not a wargame so it's not fair to judge it against other wargames, its a strategy/resource management game, you do have to plan your strategy for a turn and upcoming turns, you have to plan and manage your resources and you have to hope that lady luck smiles upon you when you enter a fight but the odds are weighted for you (as is right for a hero) and it portrays the Marvel universe in a way that hasn't been done before in a boardgame!

This isn't a review so don't slate me for it, it's our two penneth worth (my kids wanted me to write in 'cause they read this forum a lot and their fav' game always seems to be slated).
It has a good system, it's easy to pick up and play, it has theme, it creates some classic moments and it's FUN!
(or are my kids above average IQ? 'cause others seem to have dificulty grasping the mechanics).


...Is that better>?
 
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marty hagenhouew
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thanx holywolfman!
 
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Chris Malme
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out4blood wrote:
People don't like the game for various reasons. But it's probably not because they have a low IQ, which is what you were intimating.

I don't believe that is what he was saying, at all. I read his review as asking a question "is this game too hard?", and then concluding that - in his opinion - it wasn't.
 
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I am happy.
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truebeliever wrote:
this post wasn't meant to be a review per se' and it certainly wasn't meant to be condecending, if thats the way it came across i sincerely apologize, it was meant to point out that, yeah, the rule book may come across as fiddly in places but if my 11yr old son can pick it up and play it even when i am not present AND understand the concepts of the system then i don't think its too hard for anybody to grasp. Play the game with the book open beside you, refer to the book when you come across a point thats not really clear but most of all enjoy it and don't get bogged down comparing it to other games.
When this game flows it flows really well and the table chat, conspiring, double dealing that often takes place when it comes to playing villain cards and back-ups to thwart other players plans means everybody is taking part and nobody is ever bored.
Again, my apologies if it came across as condecending, it wasn't meant in that vein.

Apology accepted. What you need to be aware of is the combination of comments like:
Quote:
is this game too hard for people?

and
truebeliever wrote:
my 11yr old son can pick it up and play it

finally,
truebeliever wrote:

When this game flows it flows really well and the table chat, conspiring, double dealing that often takes place when it comes to playing villain cards and back-ups to thwart other players plans means everybody is taking part and nobody is ever bored.

Clearly, you're arguments are:
1. This is a great game
2. My 11 yr old can do it.
3. Conclusion: Since this is a great game and since my 11 yr. old can play it, you must be dumber than my 11 yr old.

Everyone on BGG is arguing against supposition 1.

As far as the game goes, I'm also a big fan of Marvel, but I was disappointed in the game. The game has too many one-off rules and separate tracks. Juggling the rules forces the players out of the theme, furthermore, repetitively looking up rules slows down any game and players don't like that. Overall, game has a feel to it as if someone wrote out post-it notes of "theme" they wanted to include and matched them up to game mechanics, put it in a pretty box and called it done. It makes the game feel forced and awkward.

Finally, if you're new to BGG forums (or any forums for that matter), you have to understand forum posts. There's a lot of posters that let their emotions drive their posts. More often than not, they need to feel their voice is heard. Furthermore, they often have difficulty articulating why something makes them feel a certain way, so they grasp (sometimes wildly) at adjectives which have emotional connotations (It's FUN!, It SUCKS!, I did/n't LIKE it), but no practical information. However, the bottom line is something is making them feel that way, as a reader, you have to do a little filtering and a little reading between the lines to get to the root of the matter.

Please realize, I'm not indirectly criticizing your post. You did an excellent job of explaining why you like the game.
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marty hagenhouew
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thanx boss, your comments are noted, next time i post a 'review' i'll endeavour to take them onboard (i'll also put everything into paragraphs too...)

i was probably a bit biased due to my unwavering love of Marvel but, hand on heart, we found this game to be easy to pick up and we didn't think any part of it was simply tagged on (such as the story track which many people think is just a last minute add on, some of our games have come down to the wire and have been won due to manipulation of this track and the extra power boosts available also add flavour...)

anyway, i think i got my point across-is this game too hard? we don't think it is!
 
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truebeliever wrote:

anyway, i think i got my point across-is this game too hard? we don't think it is!


You did and yes, you're right.

truebeliever wrote:
the extra power boosts available also add flavour

Here's where I feel MH missed the boat. IMHO, any Superhero game comes down to Super Powers. The more you use them, the more flavor the game has. Specifically, the more they're used in within the combat mechanics, the better the game. Combat in MH is rather dry, super powers are often just one shot deals, the players don't have anything to choose from (i.e. different powers or ways to use them). Overall, MH focuses more on strategy than tactics, e.g. bringing heroes into the game. That was the mistake of the designers.

However, I really like how the game works the "Boss Monsters", which is very clever.
 
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Imyselfdontbelieveinanyformofpunctuationwhatsoeverandiveneverrunintoanyproblems
 
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