$20.00
Willem Moransard
Netherlands
Amsterdam
NH
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Specific Prophecy question as mentioned in the subject line.
That Prophecy is active, I have 3 trick markers on a venue that each yield 1 shard (so 3 total).
When this venue is performed, do I receive an extra 6 fame (2 fame for each shard) or 2 fame (2 fame for the total yield of 3 shards for all three trick counters).

We thought you could read it both ways.

Thanks in advance.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Barry Miller
United States
Saint Charles
Missouri
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb

It's a flat 2 fame. Actually, I think the wording is quite clear in what it says. Let's dissect the sentence:

"Anytime you receive 1 or more shards,..."

Analysis: This is the trigger. So anytime you receive 1 shard, 2 shards, 3 shards, or more... it doesn't matter, but anytime you receive 1 or more shards, you're going to trigger something.

"...you also receive 2 fame."

Analysis: This is the result, which is, you receive 2 fame. That's all. That's it. You get 2 fame. It doesn't say you get 2 fame for each shard. It clearly says, "2 fame." That means, 2 fame, only.

Bottom Line: When you receive 1 or more shards (the trigger).... then you get 2 fame (the result).

That's my interpretation, anyway!

3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andy Burgess
United Kingdom
Cambridge
Cambridgeshire
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
That was my first thought, too, but then I thought about it, and I think the question is more about how often you receive shards in this situation. Do you receive three shards all at once for the total performance, or do you receive one shard at a time, for each trick in the performance?

So now I'm not sure, but my gut feeling is that it's three shards all at once for the total performance. I can't back it up, though.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Willem Moransard
Netherlands
Amsterdam
NH
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Andy: exactly our predicament.
You get 1 shard from the first trick: 2 fame
You get 1 shard from the second trick: 2 fame
Etc.

Or, you get a total of 3 shards from the 3 tricks: 2 fame.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Barry Miller
United States
Saint Charles
Missouri
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb

Ah, OK, now I see where you guys are coming from! It's certainly a question worth official clarification. In the meantime, I'll offer for consideration:

MercifulBiscuit wrote:
...but my gut feeling is that it's three shards all at once for the total performance.

I agree. Here's why:

That when a magician performs all the tricks on a Performance card, that magician is taking a "Perform Action" (Ref: Rulebook, pg 17, and Magician's Workbook, pg 11). Plus, pg 17 of the rulebook uses the word, "all", quite often when referring to the performance of tricks on a Performance card, and the collection of Yield payouts.

Thusly the repeated use of, "all", which suggests that all the tricks are considered as one group, plus the fact that the performance of all the tricks is considered to be a single action, could be interpreted as: That when shards are collected from multiple tricks of the same Performance card, they are collected as one total.

That's one possible interpretation, anyway. It's the way I play, BTW. Though I could be wrong. I've been wrong once or twice.

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Desiree Greverud
Sweden
Stockholm
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
bgm1961 wrote:

Ah, OK, now I see where you guys are coming from! It's certainly a question worth official clarification. In the meantime, I'll offer for consideration:

MercifulBiscuit wrote:
...but my gut feeling is that it's three shards all at once for the total performance.

I agree. Here's why:

That when a magician performs all the tricks on a Performance card, that magician is taking a "Perform Action" (Ref: Rulebook, pg 17, and Magician's Workbook, pg 11). Plus, pg 17 of the rulebook uses the word, "all", quite often when referring to the performance of tricks on a Performance card, and the collection of Yield payouts.

Thusly the repeated use of, "all", which suggests that all the tricks are considered as one group, plus the fact that the performance of all the tricks is considered to be a single action, could be interpreted as: That when shards are collected from multiple tricks of the same Performance card, they are collected as one total.

That's one possible interpretation, anyway. It's the way I play, BTW. Though I could be wrong. I've been wrong once or twice.


I find nearly all questions like this can be easily resolved by thinking of each action taken (i.e. each payment of AP and/or placed worker) as a single action that provides some reward/benefit. Err on the side of consolidating rather than breaking things into smaller components.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Willem Moransard
Netherlands
Amsterdam
NH
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Fair enough.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Philip Mazzone
United States
Maspeth
New York
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I think there is a strong case for them being individual, but Ill side with it taking place at once, which is the way we play as well. Thematically, think of it as being a magician, doing your performance, and then meeting with the owner to receive your payment. He's going to pay you a flat total for the evening, he wouldnt stand there and say heres 2 gold for that first thing you did, oh and heres another 3 gold for that other thing etc .....
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Willem Moransard
Netherlands
Amsterdam
NH
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
It actually makes a lot of sense when you put it like that.
I'm convinced, my friend was right (still would've won though )
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Viktor Péter
msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmb
Looks like you've reached the correct consensus , but I can confirm that performance yields are indeed received all at once, so in this case you'd only receive 2 Fame.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Adrian Schmidt
Sweden
Malmö
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
This exact question came up when my wife and I was playing a while ago. We reasoned that "anytime you receive 1 or more shards" probably meant "anytime someone takes an action that results in you receiving 1 or more shards", and while different tricks are, thematically, "performed" after each other, all tricks in a single performance are triggered by one single action, thus triggering the bonus once.

Happy to see we ended up with the right conclusion
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Willem Moransard
Netherlands
Amsterdam
NH
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Thanks everyone!
Glad I got it clarified and relieved I still would've won even with this rule wrongly interpreted.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael D
msg tools
Consider the same situation as above but also the engineer is back stage and the performance card pays a shard.

Are we saying that the performance action lumps these payouts as well? So you gave 3 tricks with a shard, the engineer nets a shard and the performance card a shard. This 2 Extra fame. The result of a single perform action.

Or

Are the engineer and performance card payouts a different event. I say yes. I look to a prophesy that doubles the performer bonuses but not the trick yields. I point to the subtile graphic on the board that separates the payout into 2 steps (trick yields and performer bonuses). And the rule book takes effort in separating these into two categories.

I say in this situation it's plus 2 fame for the trick yields and a plus 2 fame for the engineer/performance card payout (performer bonus).

Thoughts?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Desiree Greverud
Sweden
Stockholm
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
electricalstorm wrote:
Consider the same situation as above but also the engineer is back stage and the performance card pays a shard.

Are we saying that the performance action lumps these payouts as well? So you gave 3 tricks with a shard, the engineer nets a shard and the performance card a shard. This 2 Extra fame. The result of a single perform action.

Or

Are the engineer and performance card payouts a different event. I say yes. I look to a prophesy that doubles the performer bonuses but not the trick yields. I point to the subtile graphic on the board that separates the payout into 2 steps (trick yields and performer bonuses). And the rule book takes effort in separating these into two categories.

I say in this situation it's plus 2 fame for the trick yields and a plus 2 fame for the engineer/performance card payout (performer bonus).

Thoughts?

I'd say it's still one action. You placed a magician on a spot, performed a performance card and as a result get a payout, with some bonuses attached. Still just one payout though. Trying to split it feels very "game-y" to me, trying to take advantage of rules written for humans and not computers.

Basically, if there is no way to get one of the results without also getting the other, then it's a single action.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael D
msg tools
I agree that it's one action.

I'm saying that there are 2 unique payouts

1. Trick yields
2. Performer bonuses

They are separate in the rule book.
They are differentiated in one of the prophesies.
They are graphically separated on the board.

I don't have a definitive answer. I'm just saying there is evidence that supports it being 2 unique payouts from a single action.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Desiree Greverud
Sweden
Stockholm
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
electricalstorm wrote:
I agree that it's one action.

I'm saying that there are 2 unique payouts

1. Trick yields
2. Performer bonuses

They are separate in the rule book.
They are differentiated in one of the prophesies.
They are graphically separated on the board.

I don't have a definitive answer. I'm just saying there is evidence that supports it being 2 unique payouts from a single action.

2 calculations, yes, but one payout. you took one action. You placed your magician in the theater. "any time you receive 1 or more shards..."

The designers are clearly anticipating actions where you receive multiple shards at once, so that alone doesn't get you more fame. The criteria here is "any time" What is a "time"? I would argue, taking an action (placing your disc and/or spending AP points on a specific choice) is " a time" for purposes of determining any of these bonuses. Otherwise you are trying to subdivide your actions in order to game the system. You are no longer playing the game, but trying to rules-lawyer an advantage.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael D
msg tools
Your usage of"any time" being defined as a character placement is reasonable.

My point is I'm not subdividing anything that the creator didn't already split out. Again, see the prophesy related to double payout on performer bonuses. See the graphic on the board that divides the performer bonus from the trick yield.

That graphic doesn't split the link bonus from the specialist bonus from the performance card bonus. They are one. The trick yields are another.

So why is there a distinct division between these two payouts?

I only suggest that they are actually different payouts and the extra game is available for each.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael D
msg tools
Maybe viktor can weigh in on this.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.