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Subject: An American football card game? rss

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martin
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So I'm actually thinking about making a football card game for a contest here on BGG.

Now I know Sports and Board/card games are usually a tough sell but was wondering if there is an actual niche for this? I'm thinking a light to medium game with a aim for the 30-45 min sweet spot. The game should also fit in a mint tin.

The game would simulate Offensive drives. Each team gets one per quarter and so they get 4 'Drives' per game. This is very abstracted and I realise that theoretically I team may score a maximum of 28 points in a game, but hey, I have to make sacrifices somewhere and this ain`t the NFL. Also each drive the team starts at their end at the 30 yard line. They will have four downs to get 10 yards to continue ect ect. If they fail to get a field goal, Touchdown or even a first down, the opponent gets to go on offence. After both players have gotten an offensive drive the `quarter` ie Turn is finished.

Each player gets 8 offensive play cards and 8 defensive play cards. When on offence (on a OFF Drive) a player can only play OFF play cards and the same goes for when on defence, only DEF cards. The players choose Simultaneous a play card from their decks and place them facedown. Then they reveal which play each player has chosen. The play vs play will have a somewhat similiar mechanism to rock-scissor-paper but alot more complex. Say a defensive Blitz play would be very advantageous versus a Hail Mary offensive play for example.

-The game would also include alot of dice rolling.
-Players (8 on the field at a time) would be divided into 3 tiers, Average, Good and Star. That would be the only stats. Each team would have 3 stars, 5 Good and 8 average players. Each team will have that mix in different positions. One team might have a star QB and the next team might have an average QB.

Also thinking about abstracting the hell out of Time-outs. teams get 1 per half and they will give multiple choice bonuses such as Gain an extra Re-roll, Gain an extra Down this drive or when choosing plays place 2 facedown instead of one..When your opponent reveals his card, you may then choose which of the two cards you placed to use.

This is just me brainstorming some ideas in my head that needed to come out I`d be very interested in hearing your opinions on whether this might be worth exploring further and if you have any ideas and or thoughts?

Also I would be curious to know if any football or even sports games use a simultaneous action card selection mechanic like my game idea above.





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Sturv Tafvherd
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Famous First Downs: The World's Smallest Football Game

Similarities: cards, selecting plays, short list of components

Differences: not simultaneous ... well, sorta. not limited to 1 drive per quarter. no dice.
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Matt D
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Pretty sure you just described 1st & Goal with some minor alterations.

It's from 2011, still kind of out there, and had a number of expansions for different divisions of teams.

I think you'd have to present a significant improvement over that to be able to find a market for it, to be honest. While it may not be perfect, it's at least a benchmark, and based around how successful it was, you may not find a lot of takers for another football game.
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martin
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Quote:
Pretty sure you just described 1st & Goal with some minor alterations.

It's from 2011, still kind of out there, and had a number of expansions for different divisions of teams.

I think you'd have to present a significant improvement over that to be able to find a market for it, to be honest. While it may not be perfect, it's at least a benchmark, and based around how successful it was, you may not find a lot of takers for another football game.


Yeah, thanks for the reference and looking up at the rules..I do see the similiarities with 1st and Goal..Right down to the 8 Offensive and 8 Defensive cards! WOW. Its always strange coming up with an idea and finding out its already been done before

I was actually planning on including player positioning on the play cards using a 3x3 grid. This would determine how successful plays would or wouldn't be. Say zone A1 has two defenders there (according to the defensive players' choice of play) and the offensive player played a play card that would make a pass into that zone (A1). The offensive play would be at a serious disadvantage (dice modifier?) to succeed. Also the quality of the football players on the field would make a difference with Stars, Good and average football players.

I'm not quite sure if this would make enought of a difference between the games to pursue this design or not yet thought.

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martin
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Quote:
Famous First Downs: The World's Smallest Football Game

Similarities: cards, selecting plays, short list of components

Differences: not simultaneous ... well, sorta. not limited to 1 drive per quarter. no dice.


Thanks. I'm going to look into this one as well. On a side note I was also already aware of Third and Long: The Football Card Game
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Matt D
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melbards wrote:

I'm not quite sure if this would make enought of a difference between the games to pursue this design or not yet thought.


I'm sure you could make it different enough that there wouldn't be real conflict.

I would just question based around the lack of huge success for 1st and Goal whether there would be a good market for it, IF you were to make it.
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Doug Moyer
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I haven't looked at this much, so I don't know that it's similar other than the football theme, I just thought it was funny that you mentioned fitting into a mint tin:
Real Deal Football Mint: Contest Ready
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martin
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Quote:
I haven't looked at this much, so I don't know that it's similar other than the football theme, I just thought it was funny that you mentioned fitting into a mint tin:
Real Deal Football Mint


Thanks for the heads up I have seen it and it does look pretty neat. However, Its not similiar at all to what I have been planning apart from being in a tin. Funny thing is..I think only about making mint tin games at the moment. I like the challenge, I think I might have caught a fever from the contest...


I also made a quick mock up of some play cards (one defensive and one offensive) to compare and to better illustrate my idea.

The offensive coach chooses a rush play "Bull Rush" while the defensive coach chooses "Nickel".

BULL RUSH vs NICKEL
The rushing play is for the Running Back (RB) (who is rated good), to move the ball up the right hand side. Nickel, unfortunately for the defensive coach has left open spaces on both flanks. I guess he was expecting a pass...So the RB is uncontested and moves past the scrimmage and onto the 2nd zone on the right. At this point he has a 5 yard gain.

We have Contact!
The second zone is guarded by a Linebacker (LB) who is rated Average. To break past the LB, the RB needs a roll of 3+. If he fails he is tackled and the play ends. If he succeeds he then proceeds to the 3rd zone and has now gained a total of 10 yards.

Getting past zone three
Inside the 3rd zone is a star Corner Back (CB). Because the RB is rated only good against a star he needs a 5+ to dodge the tackle. If he fails he is tackled and the play ends with a ten yard gain. If he succeeds he moves off the grid and gains an automatic 15 yards plus a dice roll(?) of extra bonus yards...maybe D6x5 yards.

I also wish too include alot more things, but this would be the basic framework of the game. Very Dicey I suppose, but I think strategy and mind games could be a big part of it as well.

I hope this all makes sense Let me know your thoughts..Would this seem like fun?



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Rob Stevenson
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This is just an aside regarding the name of your rushing play. I would not call an offensive rushing play "Bull Rush".

In American Football, a Bull Rush is typically a technique employed by a defensive lineman to directly and forcefully attack an offensive player by overpowering them with speed and strength rather than finesse.

Also, Nickel is a formation/personnel set rather than a play - you can run a great many plays out of the Nickel.

Getting the terminology wrong or mixed up is the sort of thing that can turn off prospective players.
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Rob Stevenson
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Since there aren't any decision points after the plays are selected, you could streamline play by having the offensive coach roll 3 differently coloured dice at once, one for each level of the defence. If you don't get past the first or second level you can ignore the remaining dice.

In fact, how about having the offensive coach role his 3 dice and place them in order after the plays are chosen but before the defensive play has been revealed - you could gamble on getting through an empty area in the first level by placing a low dice there. Or place your highest die at the first level to try and guarantee a gain even if a good defender is present.
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Kevin
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I think I remember one called Red Zone from back in my CCG days.
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Zac Jensen
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As a pretty avid sports fan, I can say that these types of games are extremely difficult to get a fan base for.

1. You already have a smallish percentage of board game players that even like sports.

2. The ones that really like sports wouldn't see this as a real simulation of football. How would you do fumbles? How far would the defensive player return the fumble? Why did the RB only have to break 2 tackles? Is it the same every time? When can the RB go without having to break any tackles? My point here is that there's SO many things that can happen on a given play that it seems football doesn't translate to a board game very well. Baseball is the easiest and the only one I've ever liked is Strat-O-Matic and that was cool mainly because you got to play as Babe Ruth and various other Hall of Famers.

So what I'm saying is that as a football fan, I would have virtually no interest in a football board game. It sounds harsh, but just like other people have said, the market isn't worth the effort.
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Bojan Prakljacic
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Then again, if you make a football game set in the post apocalyptic setting and it's bloody as hell, you will met Kickstarter goals in 15 days lol.
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Greg Kaganyuk

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That looks awesome! If you release a print n play, let me know.

Greg
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martin
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Quote:
This is just an aside regarding the name of your rushing play. I would not call an offensive rushing play "Bull Rush".

In American Football, a Bull Rush is typically a technique employed by a defensive lineman to directly and forcefully attack an offensive player by overpowering them with speed and strength rather than finesse.

Also, Nickel is a formation/personnel set rather than a play - you can run a great many plays out of the Nickel.

Getting the terminology wrong or mixed up is the sort of thing that can turn off prospective players.


Thanks for the input While i'm no expert in american football I was honestly looking up hand-off plays and Bull Rush was named and so I chose the name. I would In theory have to name all 16 plays and each team has a different play book and so I'd probably have to come up with 32 names for plays. I'm thinking of staying away from generic names and introducing individual names for certain plays for each team as well as slight differences in the setup to add flavor. Nickel was added just as a reference to what type of play it was, not the actuall name as near the end of making the illustrations I was running out of steam so to speak.

Quote:
In fact, how about having the offensive coach role his 3 dice and place them in order after the plays are chosen but before the defensive play has been revealed - you could gamble on getting through an empty area in the first level by placing a low dice there. Or place your highest die at the first level to try and guarantee a gain even if a good defender is present.


Thats a really good idea. I will have to look into this one. It would really streamline the process. Thanks!

Quote:
As a pretty avid sports fan, I can say that these types of games are extremely difficult to get a fan base for.
1. You already have a smallish percentage of board game players that even like sports.


Hey thank you for the insight. Much appreciated

I realise this as it has been mentioned in other forum threads a few times and it was mentioned in my first post and that is one of my main concerns at the moment .

Quote:
2. The ones that really like sports wouldn't see this as a real simulation of football. How would you do fumbles? How far would the defensive player return the fumble? Why did the RB only have to break 2 tackles? Is it the same every time? When can the RB go without having to break any tackles? My point here is that there's SO many things that can happen on a given play that it seems football doesn't translate to a board game very well. Baseball is the easiest and the only one I've ever liked is Strat-O-Matic and that was cool mainly because you got to play as Babe Ruth and various other Hall of Famers.


I plan to include a few things.. Fumbles/interceptions,Timeouts, Field goals nad maybe more ect..

Right now im thinking, fumbles will be handled on a roll of a 1 when rolling to break tackle. If a 1 is rolled then maybe roll another dice and compare to how many defending players are in that zone to determine if its a turnover or not. If it is a turnover maybe have the defending team gain d6x5 yards on the return of the fumble.

The RB had to break only 2 tackles because the defending play had 2 players positioned in zones that the RB was meant to run throught (check and compare the 2 play cards to get an idea)

The RB did not have to break any tackles on the line of scrimmage because no defending players were positioned there. If there had been no players positioned the zone above either, he would be free to move there without any rolls either.

I do realise that sports games do not translate well into card/boardgames and it does represent a very challenging problem because of the need to abstract alot of important things about the sport. One of my all time favourite boardgames is Blood Bowl and this game is somewhat inspired by it in a way with the tackle zones and dodge/break tackle rolls.

I also realise that it would be impossible to please everyone. My aim here is to make a light/medium card game (50 or so mini cards) that plays quick (aiming for 30-40 mins) and fits inside your pocket or a mint tin. If you want to play a heavy football themed game where there are rules for all the options available in a real game..there are some other games with that kind of complexity. I am just curious if enought people would find this kind of light football game interesting enought to pursue with it farther.

Quote:
Then again, if you make a football game set in the post apocalyptic setting and it's bloody as hell, you will met Kickstarter goals in 15 days lol.


Oh I totally agree Blood bowl was a huge success. Your idea might be a good option indeed especially if I add zombies...that are from Mars lol
 
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martin
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That looks awesome! If you release a print n play, let me know.

Greg


Hey thanks for the support Greg. I definitaley will let you know.
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Everett
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Techno Bowl: Arcade Football Unplugged sounds like the board game version of what you are thinking of. Particularly with the levels of players.
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martin
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Quote:
Techno Bowl: Arcade Football Unplugged sounds like the board game version of what you are thinking of. Particularly with the levels of players.


Yeah, I remember seeing this game in a WIP thread a few months to a year ago. I'm glad to see that the game was funded and reading up on the rules just now, I do see a Blood bowl influence here as well with the block, tackle zones ect. Thanks for the link.




I've been playing around with the defence play card abit to make it clearer and to show what I have in mind.



The yellow numbers in each zone would be the defensive coverage of that zone. Having a star/good player in a zone increases it, having additional players in one zone increases it, having no players gives the defensive coverage a rating of zero.

The Alarm clock image at the top right represents the Pressure this particular play will bring to the offensive lineman at the scrimmage. The more players in zone S-2 the more the pressure. When you compare this "pressure" rating to the offensive's pocket defence rating (The ability to protect its QB) It will show how effective the formation is at sacking the QB. A blitz type play would bring tons of pressure and if the Offensive coach plays a Long pass that needs plenty of time for the QB, the chances will be very good for a sack.

Each play will also come with a specific special rule that will add extra flavor to each play.
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Bojan Prakljacic
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You know... looking at your setting you gave me an idea about sport game with miniatures.
What if those green tiles were actually cards with actions for movement and bonuses for some tackling, defending etc. and they also have initiative values, lets say from 1 to 8 (the lower number the better). Filed would be made as a grid so placing cards in the grid placeholders would be easy.
You place a card under your miniature to activate that miniature.

Both players would place their cards on the field face down(preparing actions) and then figurines on top, then they would flip all their cards and resolve those actions in order.

So, one player might have a card with initiative 1 that says:

MOVE and TACKLE --> ---> Down, +1

Which means he can move 2 x right and 1 x down, using a tackle action if he encounter a guy with a ball, and he also have +1 bonus to a die (for dice rolls that would be used for resolving those things)

And other player might just activated some other figurine with the same initiative, but on other part of the field.

So, both players would program their actions, execute by hierarchy, resolve any engagements, and so on, from turn to turn, trying to score, get yards, etc....

Hmmm... Thx for giving me this idea. :} Might be something in it.
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martin
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Quote:
You know... looking at your setting you gave me an idea about sport game with miniatures.
What if those green tiles were actually cards with actions for movement and bonuses for some tackling, defending etc. and they also have initiative values, lets say from 1 to 8 (the lower number the better). Filed would be made as a grid so placing cards in the grid placeholders would be easy.
You place a card under your miniature to activate that miniature.

Both players would place their cards on the field face down(preparing actions) and then figurines on top, then they would flip all their cards and resolve those actions in order.

So, one player might have a card with initiative 1 that says:

MOVE and TACKLE --> ---> Down, +1

Which means he can move 2 x right and 1 x down, using a tackle action if he encounter a guy with a ball, and he also have +1 bonus to a die (for dice rolls that would be used for resolving those things)

And other player might just activated some other figurine with the same initiative, but on other part of the field.

So, both players would program their actions, execute by hierarchy, resolve any engagements, and so on, from turn to turn, trying to score, get yards, etc....

Hmmm... Thx for giving me this idea. :} Might be something in it.


No problem. That is a good idea and I do hope that it works for you
 
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martin
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In case anyone is still interested in the design and development of this game idea..I have started a WIP thread here:
SUPER TIN BOWL.

There is not much more info about the game just yet but the rules should be up by the end of the week.

Cheers!
 
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