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Subject: Deep Madness or Darklight: Memento Mori rss

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Hi,

I ask this question to the persons who obviously know about the Darklight Kickstarter.

Both games have my attention but I can only afford one.
Of course they are not the same game but they seem to scratch the same Dungeon crawling itch.

Do some people have an opinion on why choosing one rather than the other?

Any opinion is fine as long as it is based on a comparison (if you don't know about DLMM, just don't write a comment about why you pledged for DM, it just won't help).

Thanks!
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Jason Beighel
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I hadn't seen Darklight when it was a kickstarter, it looks really good. I probably wouldn't have backed it though, where I have a big interest in backing Deep Madness.

For me it's the theme. Descent scratches my fantasy dungeon crawl itch. Darklight probably would be a fun twist on that theme, but I'm not excited about having a second fantasy dungeon crawler.

What I don't have is a sci-fi dungeon crawl game. Deep Madness isn't quite what I'm after, which is why I'm still debating to back it. Still though it seems really close to what I want in a sci-fi game.

So one has a theme I'm content with, the other has a theme I want more of.
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Nick
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The core reason to pick one or the other game would be to choose between Sci-fi/Lovecraft and heroic-fantasy, it's a question of taste, really.

After that, in terms of KS projects and campaign management, I prefer Deep madness. For these 2 companies, this is their first project on KS. But in terms of numbers, there are more miniatures, more backers, more money pledged on DM and more stretch goals.
All of the miniatures (except 6) are appearing with their sculpt on the KS campaign webpage, which is a very good sign, even though we are in the beginning of the campaign. On the other hand, Darklight is in its late pledge phase and I can see a lot of sketches of the miniatures without sculpts.
Finally, there are plans to make translations in 4 other languages in DM, which is a very thoughtful bonus.

All in all, you can feel all the hard work and efforts they have put into this project. With the abundance of videos, gameplay, rulebook available, etc, you can see they mean business. I have the same feeling as of a CMON KS campaign, which, from the 1st project of a young company, means a lot.

That said, I'm sure that Darklight's KS campaign has its own merits and you would need someone else to describe them.

But as for me, from the sci-fi/lovecraft theme to the seemingly professionalism of its KS campaign, I'm going all-in on Deep Madness
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Ondrej Kocnar
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Darklight seem more fidly, complex and old-school than this.

Also Darklight is strongly campaign based (with more potential for further imbalance and fiddliness too), this is not.
Some people love campaigns, but such games typically are worse for casual play.

Darklight has dark postmodern-y interpretation of Dante and Chistianity as part of flavour this is Sphere-ish interpretation of Lovecraft.

Darklight is more finished and revealed than this ATM (with possibly less risks and waiting involved).

This probably will have more content (especially mini wise) and perhaps the content will be more profesional.

This has more character classes, but they are less deep and involved.

Edit:

And Deep Madness looks somehow more family friendly, no spider-demons of lust at least so far.

Choose based on your preferences.
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Shelby Babb
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Do you want a RPG influenced fantasy dungeon crawler with -true- campaign building elements*, or do you want a scenario-driven sci-fi themed dice chucker?

The two are -very- different games, thematically and mechanically, and it's really hard to compare the two.

That said....

I think DLMM is probably going to be the more complex and engaging game over time, while DM is going to be more of an evening filler. Both look to be pretty random though (if that's a problem for you).

The quality of components look to be similar, but I find DM to have superior variety in the types of horrible tentacle beasties. And I'm pretty sure it has more of them to boot! On the other hand, DLMM does have some nice sculpts too, and they feel more unified thematically.

My advice: sell some older games (or eat ramen noodles for a few months) and buy both! Failing that, go in for $1 on DM and plan on upgrading next year in the pledge manager. Then go join the DLMM pledge manager while you still can.

(*lots of games these days mistake linked scenarios for a campaign (I'm looking at you CMoN!). DLMM has town visits between scenarios, evolving characters, and more.)
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My name is
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Thank you all, very interesting thoughts.
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Ondrej Kocnar
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JBeighel wrote:
I hadn't seen Darklight when it was a kickstarter, it looks really good. I probably wouldn't have backed it though, where I have a big interest in backing Deep Madness.

For me it's the theme. Descent scratches my fantasy dungeon crawl itch. Darklight probably would be a fun twist on that theme, but I'm not excited about having a second fantasy dungeon crawler.

What I don't have is a sci-fi dungeon crawl game. Deep Madness isn't quite what I'm after, which is why I'm still debating to back it. Still though it seems really close to what I want in a sci-fi game.

So one has a theme I'm content with, the other has a theme I want more of.


There is just ending (highly controversial - previous Dungeon Saga failed expectations of many it seems) Star Saga KS.

 
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Jason Beighel
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okocnar wrote:
There is just ending (highly controversial - previous Dungeon Saga failed expectations of many it seems) Star Saga KS.


How does everyone learn about all the kickstarters going on? I never seem to hear about the really promising looking ones till it's too late. I like the look of this star saga thing, I will need to read more. Thanks for pointing it out!
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Ondrej Kocnar
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JBeighel wrote:
okocnar wrote:
There is just ending (highly controversial - previous Dungeon Saga failed expectations of many it seems) Star Saga KS.


How does everyone learn about all the kickstarters going on? I never seem to hear about the really promising looking ones till it's too late. I like the look of this star saga thing, I will need to read more. Thanks for pointing it out!


I believe they will take late pledges or something similar (not confirmed).
Good luck with choosing. That KS looks good, but I read a lot of criticism here: https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1632355/star-sagaspace-saga
 
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Greg
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okocnar wrote:
JBeighel wrote:
I hadn't seen Darklight when it was a kickstarter, it looks really good. I probably wouldn't have backed it though, where I have a big interest in backing Deep Madness.
...

So one has a theme I'm content with, the other has a theme I want more of.


There is just ending (highly controversial - previous Dungeon Saga failed expectations of many it seems) Star Saga KS.



What was the problem with Dungeon Saga? I get the sense that people were unhappy with it, but I never heard why.
 
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Ondrej Kocnar
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Glic2003 wrote:
okocnar wrote:
JBeighel wrote:
I hadn't seen Darklight when it was a kickstarter, it looks really good. I probably wouldn't have backed it though, where I have a big interest in backing Deep Madness.
...

So one has a theme I'm content with, the other has a theme I want more of.


There is just ending (highly controversial - previous Dungeon Saga failed expectations of many it seems) Star Saga KS.



What was the problem with Dungeon Saga? I get the sense that people were unhappy with it, but I never heard why.


I think it would be better to ask on its own forum, I do not own it.
 
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Allan Rodda
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Glic2003 wrote:
What was the problem with Dungeon Saga? I get the sense that people were unhappy with it, but I never heard why.


The core game had some questionable design decisions in it, namely that if a scenario was 'lost' by the players then they had to repeat it over and over again until they 'won', also the entire game was run on a timer, if you ran out of turns you instantly lost the game, which seemed counter-intuitive for a game about dungeon exploration. Some people didn't mind that though and I guess it works for them.

The biggest issue, however, was the 'Adventurer's Companion', an addon supposed to add a bunch of advanced rules dealing with character advancement, random dungeons, and solo play, as well as give advice about writing your own scenarios. The rules, to put it mildly, did not live up to expectations. To put it a little less mildly, they were rushed out the door, unplaytested, poorly written, poorly spell checked, incompatible with the core game in places and, to top it all off, some of them were literally unplayable out of the box.

Mantic tried to shrug it off saying people expected too much or that things got away from them during the kickstarter, however the truth is more that they trusted the designer of the project to do it right and didn't give themselves enough time for re-writes afterwards. After delivery they ranked up and took a "too bad its broken, this is what you get" stance towards backers, only admitting a year later (when they wanted those backers to come back for Star Saga) that the book maybe wasn't what they intended it to be and that they would look into fixing it.

It's interesting to note that Star Saga attempts to fix many of the criticisms leveled at Dungeon Saga, at least in the core game (such as the timer and the 'warded' doors). Furthermore it tries to fix the advanced rules by carving out all the interesting parts and leaving us with a rather bland and somewhat random character builder and a 'mission building' supplement (contents to be determined at a future date).

Anyway, I'm way off topic, but that's essentially why people were a bit disappointed with Dungeon Saga (and why you should be wary of Star Saga).
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Pleng
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I find randomly generated map and fixed map offer totally different gameplay.


So dungeon crawl and campaign play VS tactical game.

For me I would compare Darklight vs the new Shadows of brimstone: Forbidden fortress, a Japanese theme SOB, that will be kickstarted on October 31st.


And compare Deep madness with Vampire hunter that is still open for late pledge.


Adding more choices to you, LoL.
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Nick
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okocnar wrote:

Darklight is more finished and revealed than this ATM (with possibly less risks and waiting involved).

This probably will have more content (especially mini wise) and perhaps the content will be more profesional.


Can you give some more details about these please?
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My name is
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San Dee Jota wrote:
go in for $1 on DM and plan on upgrading next year in the pledge manager. Then go join the DLMM pledge manager while you still can


I just took your advice: I pledged for Darklight.
I still keep my 90$ DM pledge to benefit from the earlybird status but will probably confirm the pledge on the pledge manager in the beginning of the next year.

This will allow me to separate the payments as much as possible.

But truly, it's not really about paying everything at once.
It's just that I don't want to have too many Dungeon Crawl type of games and to be so much involved in KS's.

Something tells me that these games are appealing on the screen but when they arrive, most of them will remain on the shelves.

I'm really interested in DL:MM but I fear that this one would be between two seats: The Kingdom Death seat and any lighter Dungeon Crawler one.

It's true that DM is lighter and more of a Zombicide type of game. It's less appealing to me but, on the other hand, I don't have Zombicide and it might fill that niche which isn't already filled by many games I already have.
Most of the games I have that are in this category are campaign driven.
I planned to buy Mansions of Madness as soon as it is translated in french and now I fear these two will collide somehow.
But hey, I have 22 days to decide...

PS: One good point in favor of DM: it will be translated in french while DL:MM will not.
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Shelby Babb
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JBeighel wrote:

How does everyone learn about all the kickstarters going on? I never seem to hear about the really promising looking ones till it's too late. I like the look of this star saga thing, I will need to read more. Thanks for pointing it out!


I'd highly recommend subscribing to Kick the Table (https://boardgamegeek.com/blog/3021) for starters. Not my blog or anything, but it's a good resource.
 
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Shelby Babb
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baylock wrote:

I just took your advice: I pledged for Darklight.
I still keep my 90$ DM pledge to benefit from the earlybird status but will probably confirm the pledge on the pledge manager in the beginning of the next year.

This will allow me to separate the payments as much as possible.


Just in case there's a misunderstanding (and if you already know this, I apologize!) but when you pledge $90+ in the KS, you pay at the end of the KS. If you pledge $1, you only pay that $1 when the KS ends (but you -usually- have access to the pledge manager later).

So if you pledge $90 to DM now, you'll be paying that $90 in November when it ends. (I'm doing that, but intend to add the epic monsters and expansion and any other add ons when the pledge manager opens next year)

baylock wrote:

Something tells me that these games are appealing on the screen but when they arrive, most of them will remain on the shelves.


Yep. I've reached the point that I pledge half-way for the game, and half for the minis. If only one half wows me, I don't pledge (which is why I'll likely skip Kingdom Death and the new Shadows of Brimstone).

baylock wrote:

I'm really interested in DL:MM but I fear that this one would be between two seats: The Kingdom Death seat and any lighter Dungeon Crawler one.


Maybe. As I understand, KDM is all about managing a community, and characters are meant to diediediedie as you try to keep the community going. DLMM looks to be more based on characters actually staying alive and growing, with less emphasis on the community outside the dungeon (it's there, but not a focus of growth or survival).

baylock wrote:

It's true that DM is lighter and more of a Zombicide type of game. It's less appealing to me but, on the other hand, I don't have Zombicide and it might fill that niche which isn't already filled by many games I already have.


I think it'll be a little bit "meatier" than the lightweight that is Zombicide (and I say this as a fan of Z:Black Plague!). But as others have said, you might also check out Vampire Hunters (or Zombicide Black Plague, or Massive Darkness). There's actually a lot of options for lightweight, fast and furious dice chucker dungeon crawls these days.
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Shelby Babb
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PlengRock wrote:

For me I would compare Darklight vs the new Shadows of brimstone: Forbidden fortress, a Japanese theme SOB, that will be kickstarted on October 31st.


Enh....

FFP may be good people and all, but they're -still- trying to figure out how to finish sending people stuff from their last KS a few years back.

I'd recommend people stick with what's already out on the store shelves for SoB before backing another project by the Frog.

(and these days I'm -glad- the guy who sold me his pledge reneged on the deal)
 
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baylock wrote:
Do some people have an opinion on why choosing one rather than the other?


Both are First Created, so be careful.

Diemensional Games said that this was their first game and that their staff had no experience producing a game. I haven't researched the creators of Darklight, but they're mentioned in their KS, so make sure you know their game production experience.

KS is not a store. If you can afford only one, you may wish to back a project that has a lower risk, or buy a retail game. The holidays are starting, so it shouldn't be hard to find a sale.
 
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San Dee Jota wrote:
JBeighel wrote:

How does everyone learn about all the kickstarters going on? I never seem to hear about the really promising looking ones till it's too late. I like the look of this star saga thing, I will need to read more. Thanks for pointing it out!


I'd highly recommend subscribing to Kick the Table (https://boardgamegeek.com/blog/3021) for starters. Not my blog or anything, but it's a good resource.


prelaunch

https://boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/192002/item/4325385#item4...

postlaunch

https://boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/202374/2016-kickstarter-b...
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Ondrej Kocnar
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PlengRock wrote:
I find randomly generated map and fixed map offer totally different gameplay.


So dungeon crawl and campaign play VS tactical game.

For me I would compare Darklight vs the new Shadows of brimstone: Forbidden fortress, a Japanese theme SOB, that will be kickstarted on October 31st.


And compare Deep madness with Vampire hunter that is still open for late pledge.


Adding more choices to you, LoL.


That is pretty good comparison, I agree.

In more "classic" comparison Darklight is like Warhammer Quest
and Deep Madness like Zombicide (not speaking about quality, just
about type of the game).

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