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A Study in Emerald (second edition)» Forums » Rules

Subject: Sherlock Holmes vs Assassins rss

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Jacob Schoberg
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Played a game of this last night and had a quick question regarding Sherlock Holmes that I couldn't find the answer for.

I played two assassins in the same action, with enough bomb points, to assassinate two agents on a space. The targeted player then played Sherlock Holmes to cancel the effect of both (since they were part of the same action-- the way the rulebook reads leads me to believe this was handled correctly).

Here is where my question comes up: the Sherlock explanation says that the player still discard/lose their cards as if the action was successful, so do I still remove the two used assassins from the game? We played yes, but I wasn't really sure.

Likewise, since performing an assassination action removes all of your influence cubes, those get removed as well, correct? This I'm pretty sure is a yes.

The rule clarification for Sherlock in the back addresses a lot of specific card interactions, but not normal assassins. Given how they describe him countering Cthulhu ("he essentially kills Cthulhu before he has a chance to act") leads me to believe the assassins would be removed from the game...

Thanks for the help!
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James Schultz
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This exact scenario just happened in my game. What is the consensus? Both agents saved and both assassins removed from game, as the whole action is negated?
 
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Jacob Schoberg
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Still haven't found an answer, unfortunately.
 
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Ash Jones
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Hasn't occurred for me, but does need an official clarification. My thoughts are Holmes counteracts one assassination, except for Cthulhu's case as noted (thus 1 card interrupts 1 card). Basis for this is that each assassination should be resolved in order (pg. 13). If the first is interrupted, Holmes should be discarded and then the second assassination location declared then resolved. Possibly even a different player is targeted and Holmes stipulates your agent. Makes thematic sense too that Holmes can stop a murder in London but there's smoking guns in Berlin. Also provides room to bait Holmes out before your second more insidious assassination. Also felt that losing two assassins is a significant hit; you only start with two.

However, if played Holmes only stops one, two assassinations in the same place may result in an illegal second move (e.g. Holmes interrupts the first, influence gone and the alive opponents agent swings majority). In this case perhaps the second assassin would not proceed and the card goes back to the players hand.

Just my thoughts. As long as a house rule is consistent, it should be manageable (vampires have the same interrupt).
 
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Jacob Schoberg
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But you can perform two assassinations with a single action, and I believe the wording on Holmes is that he cancels the entire action...
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Ash Jones
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emodiu5 wrote:
But you can perform two assassinations with a single action, and I believe the wording on Holmes is that he cancels the entire action...


True, one action, but resolved in order determined by the player. My rationale is from the rule book which describes Holmes as "play this card to stop another player from eliminating one of your agents". Seems Wallace's intention was that Holmes and vampires have the same interrupt, with Holmes also able to stop Cthulhu, zombies, shoggoth etc.

The card is "Negate any action that would eliminate one of your agents". This does suggest the entire action is cancelled. I could be wrong, but as it's "any" not "an" and "action" not "Action or ACTION", I speculate it's a bad card summary and misuse of the word action. Perhaps, Wallace intended to say something like prevent anything that would eliminate (not steal) one of your agents. In contrast, vampires: "Negate any assassination of one of your agents". Vampires have no suggestion that the entire assassination action ACTION is stopped (can continue on to next targets). Rather, vampires just stop human assassins, not interfering with zombies and Old ones etc (in league with them).

If helpful, its a mechanic from the 1st edition. It was from double agents, but you could only ever trigger one assassination at a time. Wallace changed that here, but kept the same interrupting effect.

Nice spotting and good discussion. Hopefully helpful, I'm not completely sure, but definitely not sold on complete cancellation.
 
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How do you play 2 assassins in one action? The way I'm remembering the rules, that is not possible.
 
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Jacob Schoberg
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Novoknight wrote:
emodiu5 wrote:
But you can perform two assassinations with a single action, and I believe the wording on Holmes is that he cancels the entire action...


True, one action, but resolved in order determined by the player. My rationale is from the rule book which describes Holmes as "play this card to stop another player from eliminating one of your agents". Seems Wallace's intention was that Holmes and vampires have the same interrupt, with Holmes also able to stop Cthulhu, zombies, shoggoth etc.

The card is "Negate any action that would eliminate one of your agents". This does suggest the entire action is cancelled. I could be wrong, but as it's "any" not "an" and "action" not "Action or ACTION", I speculate it's a bad card summary and misuse of the word action. Perhaps, Wallace intended to say something like prevent anything that would eliminate (not steal) one of your agents. In contrast, vampires: "Negate any assassination of one of your agents". Vampires have no suggestion that the entire assassination action ACTION is stopped (can continue on to next targets). Rather, vampires just stop human assassins, not interfering with zombies and Old ones etc (in league with them).


I believe the reason the wording is different from, say, the Vampires, is that Holmes also works for something like Cthulhu (which isn't specifically 'assassinating' agents). I'm not entirely sold that it cancels the whole thing either. Honestly, I'm not sold either way, which is why I made the thread laugh



snoozefest wrote:
How do you play 2 assassins in one action? The way I'm remembering the rules, that is not possible.


Rulebook, page 13:
Quote:
You may perform more than one assassination in a single action. Each assassination requires you to play a card with the (A) symbol on. You must resolve each assassination in order, with you choosing that order. An agent piece can be used in multiple assassinations, both to allow such an assassination to occur and to contribute its bomb point value.
 
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emodiu5 wrote:

snoozefest wrote:
How do you play 2 assassins in one action? The way I'm remembering the rules, that is not possible.


Rulebook, page 13:
Quote:
You may perform more than one assassination in a single action. Each assassination requires you to play a card with the (A) symbol on. You must resolve each assassination in order, with you choosing that order. An agent piece can be used in multiple assassinations, both to allow such an assassination to occur and to contribute its bomb point value.


Ah, got it -- I was thinking 1st edition, and this is actually about 2nd edition!
 
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Ash Jones
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The more I ponder, complete cancellation raises problems that would have been explained. For instance, two simultaneous assassinations, three possible places three different players (targets 1-3). Target 1 doesn't have Holmes, assassination resolved (target 2 has Holmes but cant reveal). Target 2 is then under fire, reveals Holmes, prevents assassination, but what happens to the first assassination? I'd surely say no reversal, it happened. Another scenario, Target 2 is assassinated first, reveals Holmes, saved, cards, influence etc discarded. But what of the second assassination, following timing and order, no target (1 or 3) was declared or bombs committed; how can any influence or bombs be removed. I'd say the player shouldn't have to declare and if forced to, could say anything (e.g. target 3 was planned where there was no influence, or could even say he didn't have enough bombs in hand to carry out the second assassination).

From interpreting vampires, I cant completely cancel the subsequent assassinations, so wouldn't for Holmes.

It does seem a rare occurrence, but you are right; an answer is always good! Perhaps link Wallace your thread. From Treefrog Games "If you have a rules question then contact Martin: martin@treefroggames.com"
 
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Jacob Schoberg
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Novoknight wrote:

It does seem a rare occurrence, but you are right; an answer is always good! Perhaps link Wallace your thread. From Treefrog Games "If you have a rules question then contact Martin: martin@treefroggames.com"


I sent him an email. We'll see if the summons work laugh
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Martin Wallace
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Interesting question. I would rule that Holmes stops any of YOUR pieces from being removed. You would have to wait until the active player had declared which agents were being assassinated. You would then play the Holmes card to protect any of your agents being removed. The active player still has to discard cards as normal, and influence cubes are removed as described.

Hope that is clear.

Martin
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Jacob Schoberg
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When you say the active player still has to discard cards as normal, would that also mean that the assassin cards are removed from the game, as they would be if the assassination were successful? Or do they just get discarded?

Conversely, if Holmes counters Cthulhu, does Cthulhu still get removed from the game?

Thanks for checking in!
 
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Ash Jones
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Frog1 wrote:
Hope that is clear.

Thanks for the response.

Glad to clear the whole action is not cancelled /negated and other assassinations are carried out as normal.

Saving all your agents makes Holmes even more powerful, he burns a lot of assassinate cards and can defend up to six zombie attacks at once. Can swing the game, although these are rare occurrences.

Also makes declaration of all assassination targets /zombies attacks very important too, which is hard (people can hastily reveal Holmes before all targets determined).

There is also a zombie ambiguity if you have the time; here. Thanks.

@Jacob: yes, removed, yes.
 
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