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Subject: Trucks in Blast Area effected only by KIA? (46.54) rss

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Scott B
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In all my years of playing, I completely missed this. Its out of sync with 51.4, as amended by the "Second Edition Squad Leader Changes" in COI2-74. I updated the SQLA convention to treat them consistently as follows:

Quote:
Only AFVs are immune to MC results on the IFT. Unarmored vehicles are affected by Morale Check results on the IFT, which are resolved according to 51.4. Through the second edition rulebook, 51.4 read "Any infantry or MG fire resulting in a KIA destroys the truck; all other results are ineffective against the truck but results calling for Morale Checks would affect the passengers or infantry on foot beneath the truck counter." This was amended in Squad Leader Second Edition Changes in COI2-74 to: "Fire against soft vehicular targets on the IFT can also result in the vehicle being immobilized or wrecked if it fails a Morale Check called for by the IFT..." This convention re-established the consistent treatment of unarmored vehicles between 46.54 and 51.4.


Sound reasonable or am i missing something?

Thanks,

Scott
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T. Dauphin
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That would seem consistent, and it does seem like two different people writing rules. So, I did some number crunching.
At 6 on the IFT (equal to an HMG) an artillery barrage would KIA on 6 or less (with the -3 modifier); 42%. Add in the double MC failure kill (which MCs occur between 7 and 10), and (not sure about my statistical math, but I roughly calculate the additional kills at about 8%) an artillery barrage at 6IFT results in a kill 50% of the time.
An MG firing at a truck receives no modifiers so kills 3/36 or 8% of the time.
This seems quite incongruous. I would like there to be an immobilization option for artillery barrages, but I'm not sure on the kill rate, that even the 42 - 8 difference is balanced.
I don't have the benefit of any stats that show kill rates using either method, but it does seem that attacks at the same strength should not result in differences of such magnitude. Is a targetted MG attack so feeble in comparison to a rather random, if dense, artillery barrage?

I don't know.
Are my numbers wrong?

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Scott B
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Quote:
51.4 - Trucks can be eliminated by either heavy weapons fire on the AFV KILL TABLE or infantry fire on the Infantry Fire Table. Any infantry or MG fire resulting in a KIA destroys the truck; all other results are ineffective against the truck but results calling for Morale Checks would affect any passengers or (on foot) infantry beneath the truck counter.


These rules are consistent with 51.4:
* Flamethrowers use AFV TO KILL TABLE and same dice roll on IFT vs infantry in hex (32.5, 37.2).
* Demolition Charges use AFT TO KILL TABLE and same dice roll on IFT vs infantry in hex. (32.5, COI4-68).
* Overrun needs a KIA -5, one dice roll effects all units in hex. (35.3).
* FFE needs KIA -3, all passengers affected (46.54).
* Minefield KIA -3, passengers unaffected unless destroyed. (55.6).
* Boats are treated as vehicles. Launched boats need a KIA -3, MC do not effect boat or passengers (128.54, 128.72).
* A sniper needs a KIA - sniper DRM, a MC result forces a 51.4 MC.

Then the amendment updated 51.4 but not Overruns, FFE or Minefields.
Quote:
51.4, as amended - Trucks can be eliminated by either heavy weapons fire on the AFV KILL TABLE or infantry fire on the Infantry Fire Table. Any infantry or MG fire resulting in a KIA destroys the truck. Fire against soft vehicular targets on the IFT can also result in the vehicle being immobilized or wrecked if it fails a Morale Check called for by the IFT. A vehicle which fails a Morale Check required by the IFT must take another normal MC. If the vehicle passes the second MC, it is considered immobilized. If the vehicle fails the second MC it is considered a wreck. All soft vehicles have a normal ‘morale’ rating of “8”. Any passengers on board the vehicle would have to take a separate MC as called for by the IFT.


My opinion keeps switching back and forth. "Focusing on what the rules allow" leaves us with how far does the amendment reach. I think its all of them or none of them.

Should the amended 51.4 apply to Overruns, FFE and Minefields such that MC result affects unarmored vehicles?
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T. Dauphin
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After my 15th rereading of 51.4, I've decided that the entire passage is referring to infantry fire (including mgs) only. The reference to the IFT (which artillery uses) made me think that the rule encompassed all fire that uses the IFT (which would have included artillery fire). I no longer think so.

46.54 says that MCs do not affect vehicles.
The new 51.4 says that "Fire against soft-vehicular targets on the IFT can also result in the vehicle being immobilized or wrecked if it fails a Morale Check..." My emphasis. I think the word fire implies small arms rather than artillery, where words like "blast area", "artillery fire" and "artillery barrage" are used.

So, the amendment actually creates a difference in the treatment of unarmored vehicles between 46.54 and 51.4, since 46.54 (artillery fire) does not include the MC calculation, and according to my reading of 51.4, it includes only infantry fire--and nothing else.
As such, I'm OK with that.


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Scott B
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hi Tanik,

So you believe Overruns, FFE and Minefield are effective only with a KIA. You also applied the rule consistently. Its a reasonable position.

I don't see a rule or Q&A that provides guidance so this is a good one for the conventions.

I flipped back and forth on this. Let me know if you change your mind over the next few days.

Thanks!
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craig grinnell
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I think I am agreeing with that. If you look at the ballistic characteristics of MGs compared to a mine or artillery round, it seems more logical that a KIA would be the only way to affect a truck.
Mines and artillery produce medium velocity projectiles that tend to travel in an upward conic blast area whereas a MG bullet is a high velocity, aimed, flat trajectory projectile. Combine that with the fact that only a handful of various sized pieces of shrapnel will fly towards the truck and you end up with a very low likelihood of a kill.

Wow, I technicalled the heck outta that...

Simply put, a direct hit or VERY near miss with artillery would be needed to destroy a truck as would a mine detonating in the "right" place. It seems more like trying to balance out the "non-gameable" factors into something playable.
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Scott B
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hi Craig,

i was thinking along those lines too, particularly the mine field. So two for two on only KIA on Overrun, FFE and minefields. Your are both pulling me to the KIA side.

thanks,

S

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Scott B
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Quote:
[51B] Trucks are affected by MC results on the IFT. Exception: Indirect fire (46.54), Overruns (35.3), and Minefields (55.6) only affect the vehicle with a KIA result, modified by -3, -5, -3, respectively. The third edition amended 51.4 but not 46.54, 35.3 or 55.6. We respect the original rules requiring a KIA for indirect fire, Overruns and Minefields. -- Squad Leader Academy Conventions


Added the above and removed 46.54 convention per discussion with Bill Thomson.

Thanks for all who commented.
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Scott B
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Quote:
Hopefully a simple question. Are trucks and jeeps which enter a minefield immune to MCs rolled on the minefield attack?


-- one of the first questions from Tournament.

Thanks for input on this.
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T. Dauphin
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Good thing you were a step ahead of that one!

 
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