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Does the enlist action already yield its Recruit Ongoing Bonus (a combat card) on the turn one enlists the action's own recruit?

The rulebook doesn't really seem to specify if I didn't overlook anything (or did I?), it only says that "you may gain the specified bonus" when the action is taken "for the rest of the game". On p. 31 it says "from then on". Both passages could really be interpreted both ways in my opinion.
My guess would be that the answer to the question is supposed to be "no", probably because I would expect that otherwise it would have been explicitly mentioned.
But on the other hand, when one reads the benefits (green boxes) from left to right, as seems natural, the first green box (the recruit symbol) unlocks the last green box (the combat card), so I think a case could be made that one gets to the right part later and thus this is already meant by "from then on" and one should already get a combat card for the "unlocking" action.

Any chance for an official answer?
 
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No, it does not, as the bonus was not active at the time you executed the action.
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tankbard wrote:
No, it does not, as the bonus was not active at the time you executed the action.


It was not active when I chose the action, or when I started executing it. But it doesn't seem to say in the rules that it needs to.
As I said, I think one could argue that it becomes active halfway through executing the action and that this is just in time.

My main point is: I think the rules as written are a little too unclear in this regard, and that it would thus be better to explicitly specify.

(However, in the abscence of official clarification, my practiced interpetation would be the same as yours.)
 
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The consensus is that you do not get the bonus on the turn you enlist the enlist recruit:
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1603309/does-enlisting-enlis...
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1603948/enlist-enlist-recrui...

No answer from Jamey on the topic yet though. If you would like official clarification maybe submit it as a question directly to him? I think the FAQ website has a way to do that.
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Do you pay the additional cost for producing before you reveal that cost when producing in a village? At the time the action is taken, you only pay the existing cost, the same would hold true for benefits.
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Paul Ferguson
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I am pretty sure Jamey did comment on this somewhere and said that you do not get the benefit on the same turn/action that you acquire it.
 
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Morten Monrad Pedersen
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Darador wrote:
tankbard wrote:
No, it does not, as the bonus was not active at the time you executed the action.


It was not active when I chose the action, or when I started executing it. But it doesn't seem to say in the rules that it needs to.
As I said, I think one could argue that it becomes active halfway through executing the action and that this is just in time.

My main point is: I think the rules as written are a little too unclear in this regard, and that it would thus be better to explicitly specify.

(However, in the abscence of official clarification, my practiced interpetation would be the same as yours.)


Here's what the rulebook says:

Quote:
For the rest of the game, whenever you or the player to your
immediate left or right (these players are shown in the icon
in the red circle) take the bottom-row action in the section
of the Player Mat from which the recruit was taken, you
gain the specified bonus


The idea here is that by the time you reveail the ongoing bonus you have already taken the action (i.e. it's in the past) and the rule specifies that the bonus only applies to actions you take from now on (i.e. in the future).

Thus you don't get the ongoing bonus on the turn you reveal it.

This could definitely have been phrased clearer .
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Squatting Monkey wrote:
Do you pay the additional cost for producing before you reveal that cost when producing in a village? At the time the action is taken, you only pay the existing cost, the same would hold true for benefits.


There is an important difference between the two examples Produce and Recruit, though:
It is unambiguous that you have to pay the cost first. You clearly only get the benefit after that (i. e. the worker(s) in case of Produce). The rules are explicit in this regard, p. 10 says: "When taking an action, first pay the cost, then gain as much or as little of the benefit as you wish."
But there doesn't seem to be anything explicit in the rules about whether the benefits are supposed to be dealt with from left to right (or even in any order you like), in which case you would already get the combat card on the "unlocking" action, or whether they are to be interpreted as a "one-time event" which can't be changed "between benefits".

Again, I am playing devil's advocate here, advocating that it would be better to clarify the rules in this regard before their next printing. The fact that there are already at least three threads about this question here on BGG (thanks for the links, Ze_German_Guy) seems to agree with me...
But I agree that the more likely intent of the rules seems to be what you guys say.
 
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Taking the Enlist token and placing it on the one-time bonus slot finishes your action. The Enlist ongoing bonus triggers when someone takes the action - which you have just finished. There's little or no ambiguity here.

In my opinion, Morten (and the rulebook) explains it pretty good.
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Jim Jones
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Quote:
For the rest of the game, whenever you or the player to your
immediate left or right (these players are shown in the icon
in the red circle) take the bottom-row action in the section
of the Player Mat from which the recruit was taken, you
gain the specified bonus


While it could be clearer an exact reading of this passage makes it clear you dont get the bonus the turn you enlist. For the rest of the game is quite clear, it means from the point you enlist onwards. Its also quite clear that it triggers when you *take* an action, i.e. selecting the action triggers the bonus. As you are already mid-way through an action when you enlist you cannot receive the bonus as you havent triggered it.
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Jonathan Challis
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'Taking' an action is initiating an action, and clearly nothing close to 'completing' an action.

I think anyone even querying this is really grasping at straws...
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Rules, at p.10
Quote:
The costs (red boxes) and benefits (green boxes) on your Player Mat are shown by the number of empty spaces beforethe action is taken.


So the only moment you assess the benefit is just before taking the action.
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DocOne wrote:
Rules, at p.10
Quote:
The costs (red boxes) and benefits (green boxes) on your Player Mat are shown by the number of empty spaces beforethe action is taken.


So the only moment you assess the benefit is just before taking the action.


Thanks a lot for that quote! I had overlooked it. I think this one is indeed unambiguously clear and answers the question for good!



Because I am very interested in the English language, here are still some more considerations about why I wasn't convinced before (although the fact that Morten answered has rtainly already helped as he seems to be associated with Jamey and Stonemaier Games):

Kelanen wrote:
'Taking' an action is initiating an action, and clearly nothing close to 'completing' an action.

I think anyone even querying this is really grasping at straws...


If that is really the case, then there may have been a language issue at hand due to the fact that I am not a native speaker. In my understanding of the verb "to take", it does not necessarily have an "instantaneous" meaning. It can refer to ongoing things as well. I indeed don't think that "take an action" is synonymous to "initiate an action" or "choose an action", it could also mean "complete an action". For instance, if you tell someone to take their turn in a game, you don't usually mean that they should initiate their turn, but that they should complete it. (Especially when you yell "Take your turn already!" at them... ) At least that was my, well, take. Which is why I thought the rulebook quotes before DocOne's weren't that decisive.
So let's consult Merriam-Webster to see if my understanding was wrong:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/take
They list lots and lots of meanings of "take" (impressive, I didn't realize how versatile that word is!). Among them is:
Merriam Webster wrote:

17
a : to undertake and make, do, or perform <take a walk> <take aim> <take legal action> <take a test> <take a look>
b : to participate in <take a meeting>


So they even specifically list taking an action with an ongoing meaning - albeit legal action.
This looks to me that my understanding was not wrong and whether "take" has an instantaneous or an ongoing meaning depends on context and/or is open to interpretation.
But I could still be wrong with this, of course, not being a native speaker. Any native speakers who care to join in?
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I had not noted the original question came in from a non-native speaker, so I apologise - English has very few absolute rules compared to most languages (at least European languages) and a lot of it is based on normal usage in context, which is very difficult for a non-native speaker.

As an aside, this is because English has a much broader range of ancestor languages than most, and it's an amalgam of Gallic/Celtic (only a tiny part now), Latin (mostly indistinguishable from the Norman French now), Briton, Germanic (via Angles Saxons and Jutes), Norman French, and then we deliberately francisised the language in the 18th century (which is why we have colour/armour/honour/etc where America has the same as we used to - color/armor/honor/etc). So non-native speakers - you have my sympathy. French and German have quite strict rules, and Latin incredibly strict, but English appears to have none. Actually it does have rules, but they are many fragments of rules based on the originating language for that word, and thus we have more exceptions than rules in most areas.

Your list from the dictionary makes quite clear that context is in important, and actually most of those examples do support my assertion by common usage, even if not by rule. For example we would use 'to take aim' to describe someone raising a gun, sighting along it, etc, but if they then hold that position we would now say that they are 'aiming'. Technically it's correct to say that they 'continue to take aim' - but even there, I have applied a temporal adjective ('continue') to the phrase, to distinguish it from an action being taken now.

We would say that someone 'takes a can from the shelf', thereafter they have 'taken it' - you can't 'take it' as an ongoing action, it's a brief transitory action.

To 'take a walk' however is a phrase that is ongoing, and would be used for the duration of the walk, as would 'take legal action' - but on inspection, these are similar in that they just last for the duration of the action, it's just a much longer action duration in question.

Now most English people would see 'when you take an action' in context of a boardgame as when you declare that action and first start it, but I agree from an acontextual study of English you could apply that throughout the action, as with a walk for example - but it's not what we would normally mean.

Thankfully it is further clarified elsewhere in the rulebook, as shown above.
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Kelanen wrote:

Now most English people would see 'when you take an action' in context of a boardgame as when you declare that action and first start it, but I agree from an acontextual study of English you could apply that throughout the action, as with a walk for example - but it's not what we would normally mean.


OK, thanks a lot for the elaboration!
For what it is worth, the German translation of the rulebook uses the verb "ausführen" for "take", which quite clearly has an ongoing meaning. The best re-translation of "ausführen" in this context would probably be "perform" (alternatively "execute").
Which isn't worth that much, though, because unfortunately translation errors are quite frequent in games' rulebooks. Which is why when I can (which is the case for English and French in addition to German), I always read the rules of a game in the original language when in doubt.
I have already found some other mistakes in the German rulebook of Scythe (more serious than the take vs. ausführen one), I'll see if I can make a list sometime.

So out of curiosity, what do you say to my example to tell someone to take their turn in a game? Do you understand that as initiating their turn or performing/completing their turn?

By the way, as for the original rule question, that is even still clearlier settled than DocOne's quote suggests - he left out that the "before" is in italics in the rulebook!
 
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There are different expressions used in some other games that involve worker placement: your placement of your action "selector" (worker/marker/whatever) is your "choice" of actions. Having chosen your action then you embark upon the action resolution (perform the action). The game state when you choose an action can be important and mostly, in this game, will not be the same after you complete it.
 
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