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Subject: How would you add the Nebulon-B Frigate into the game? rss

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David Umstattd
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So since all the expansion threads are really expansive (no pun intended) I feel it would be more helpful for us to focus on say a single mechanic or unit that might be added via expansion and how that could/should work if it works at all.

On the rebel side of things I think a lot of people felt the absence of the Nebulon-B Frigate. It could have been a blue circle ship, adding to the theme of the rebels having multiple options when building.

With fighters there wasn't really a lot of obvious room for a new ship. Since fighter's stats were so low there didn't feel like there was a lot of room for variability.

So how would it be different from the blockade runner? And would you need to remove any blockade runner pieces from the core set so the rebels don't have too many possible ships they could build? I don't know.

However I'm more curious as to it's stats. The way I see it there are two things you could modify while keeping it balanced with the blockade runner:

Dice composition
transport capacity.

From what I know of the lore Corellian Corvettes were rather good anti fighter ships and so I would think perhapse the Nebulon-B might get two red dice and zero black dice as opposed to the blockade runner. This might put it at an interesting place in the game giving it unique uses like the Y wing vs X-wing dilema.

Since Nebulon-Bs were often medical support ships I feel giving them 3 troop capacity could be interesting. Alternatively you could say, give them 4 capacity but only give them the one red dice. So they're basically transports with some dice. Though that still doesn't quite feel balanced. So maybe another hit point? Though I'm not sure about how much tougher Nebulon-B's were than Blockade Runners.

I know in lore NBFs were weak on their sides and so that got me thinking, if you wanted to add a new mechanic with the ship. Namely that it has two different hit point values.

The way this would work is that it would have say, a black hit point value of 1 and a red hit point value of 2. If either of it's hit point values are filled up it's destroyed. So it would be weaker against certain types of attacks. Maybe give it 3 red hit points and 1 black to be more ballanced. The idea being that since it's flanks were weak to attacks fighters would be more able to move in and attack from the side. But capital ships that mostly engage from a distance would have trouble flanking.

Maybe too complicated, but specifying "3 red HP or 1 black HP" seems simple enough for people to understand intuitively.

I'm not sure if NBFs were weak against fighters in the lore though. So if not then you may want to do away with or reverse the numbers. Somebody who is smarter than me in star wars lore help me out here.


A lot of fun in the rebel production side is picking and choosing your fighter composition. I think having this same choice dynamic with your capital ships could also be quite interesting. And giving the rebels a ship specifically weak against fighters but strong against capital ships could be quite interesting.

Or alternatively you could just give it a lot of hit points and troop capacity but fewer combat dice. That could also make it serve a purpose in the fleet.
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Saro Gumusyan

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I woukd keep it simple with the Nebulon-B, maybe making it a pure combat ship with two black, one red and three hit points without any carrying capacity. This could also encourage transport building since I feel it is not terribly common.

I'm not familiar with it's representation in Armada but in the PC version of Rebellion they were one of the most efficient warships in the game.

Of all things to add in an expansion this one of the most logical choices, along with TIE bombers for the Empire.
 
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Clinton Rice
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Are we now at the point of needing a thread for each miniature people want to see? I miss the days of old when the threads were all about incredibly unlikely scenarios (one x-wing, no ds plans, no leader, one death star, two ion cannons anybody?) instead of incredibly unlikely expansions.

Quick. Someone post another thread asking if leaders in the system add their dice to missions before I go dark side on this forum!
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David Umstattd
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Darth Coupon wrote:
I woukd keep it simple with the Nebulon-B, maybe making it a pure combat ship with two black, one red and three hit points without any carrying capacity. This could also encourage transport building since I feel it is not terribly common.

I'm not familiar with it's representation in Armada but in the PC version of Rebellion they were one of the most efficient warships in the game.

Of all things to add in an expansion this one of the most logical choices, along with TIE bombers for the Empire.


Giving a NBF no carry capacity especially when Blockade Runners get 2 seems highly unthematic. Especially given that they were used as medical support ships. Making them better at taking out fighters than Blockade Runners also seems non thematic as (to my understanding) blockade runners were superior at taking on fighters given the configuration of their turbolasers.
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Saro Gumusyan

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But this is all an abstraction anyway, and you have to keep things simple. Getting into elaborate health and combat mechanics is not the way to go. The only option is to fiddle with attack, health and capacity without breaking balance.

Also, as I am aware I think the Redemption was the only medical frigate, Nebulon-Bs were used by the Empire as small support ships before the Rebels stole some.
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Bob Boberson
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David Umstattd wrote:
Darth Coupon wrote:
I woukd keep it simple with the Nebulon-B, maybe making it a pure combat ship with two black, one red and three hit points without any carrying capacity. This could also encourage transport building since I feel it is not terribly common.

I'm not familiar with it's representation in Armada but in the PC version of Rebellion they were one of the most efficient warships in the game.

Of all things to add in an expansion this one of the most logical choices, along with TIE bombers for the Empire.


Giving a NBF no carry capacity especially when Blockade Runners get 2 seems highly unthematic. Especially given that they were used as medical support ships. Making them better at taking out fighters than Blockade Runners also seems non thematic as (to my understanding) blockade runners were superior at taking on fighters given the configuration of their turbolasers.


Since they are medical support ships, maybe allowing a destroyed ground troop to be put into build queue 1 instead of back into the supply would be more in line with their theme?
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David Umstattd
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bobacles wrote:
David Umstattd wrote:
Darth Coupon wrote:
I woukd keep it simple with the Nebulon-B, maybe making it a pure combat ship with two black, one red and three hit points without any carrying capacity. This could also encourage transport building since I feel it is not terribly common.

I'm not familiar with it's representation in Armada but in the PC version of Rebellion they were one of the most efficient warships in the game.

Of all things to add in an expansion this one of the most logical choices, along with TIE bombers for the Empire.


Giving a NBF no carry capacity especially when Blockade Runners get 2 seems highly unthematic. Especially given that they were used as medical support ships. Making them better at taking out fighters than Blockade Runners also seems non thematic as (to my understanding) blockade runners were superior at taking on fighters given the configuration of their turbolasers.


Since they are medical support ships, maybe allowing a destroyed ground troop to be put into build queue 1 instead of back into the supply would be more in line with their theme?


I think only the one we see in the movies is a medical ship. It was heavily modified to have far fewer armaments and hanger bays in order to accommodate the medical equipment and staff. Normal Nebulon Bs had a lot more armaments as is often depicted in games. Though the medical version had a similar number of armaments to Blockade Runners. The medical version had 14 guns while the non medical version had 24. Blockade Runners had about 8 guns. So from an abstraction standpoint if you were looking at the ship as the medical frigate giving it similar die values to blockade runners wouldn't be unreasonable but if you're going to err then err on the side of more dice. Fewer dice would not be thematic.


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David Umstattd
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bobacles wrote:
David Umstattd wrote:
Darth Coupon wrote:
I woukd keep it simple with the Nebulon-B, maybe making it a pure combat ship with two black, one red and three hit points without any carrying capacity. This could also encourage transport building since I feel it is not terribly common.

I'm not familiar with it's representation in Armada but in the PC version of Rebellion they were one of the most efficient warships in the game.

Of all things to add in an expansion this one of the most logical choices, along with TIE bombers for the Empire.


Giving a NBF no carry capacity especially when Blockade Runners get 2 seems highly unthematic. Especially given that they were used as medical support ships. Making them better at taking out fighters than Blockade Runners also seems non thematic as (to my understanding) blockade runners were superior at taking on fighters given the configuration of their turbolasers.


Since they are medical support ships, maybe allowing a destroyed ground troop to be put into build queue 1 instead of back into the supply would be more in line with their theme?


I was thinking maybe having it be able to allow you to draw ground tactics cards could be interesting. Or space tactics cards since one of their big advantages was their extensive sensor array. You'd have to heavily nerf them in some other way if you're allowing card draw as that can be ridiculous. Though it would mostly only be useful in attacks against planets with little to now space defense.
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Thomas with Subtrendy
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One of the biggest challenges I see with the Nebulon B is simply how the mini would work. So far, the only thing we have stands for are Death Stars, and I personally find that appealing (unlike other games, such as Risk: Star Wars edition where everything else has stands). Everything feels really solid, and the DS having stands when no one else does really helps it stand out (no pun intended).

Obviously the Nebulon B would need a stand, but is it even worth putting in at that point?
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David Umstattd
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Subtrendy Gaming wrote:
One of the biggest challenges I see with the Nebulon B is simply how the mini would work. So far, the only thing we have stands for are Death Stars, and I personally find that appealing (unlike other games, such as Risk: Star Wars edition where everything else has stands). Everything feels really solid, and the DS having stands when no one else does really helps it stand out (no pun intended).

Obviously the Nebulon B would need a stand, but is it even worth putting in at that point?


This is actually probably the biggest reason it wasn't added to the game. It would indeed stand out (no pun intended) for being on a stand unlike all the other ships other than the DS. And cost wise that would add a lot. Though you could argue that's why it could be relegated to an expansion.
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Josh Hay
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I wouldn't.
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Tim Garrett
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Jexhai wrote:
I wouldn't.


Seconded. Is there anything missing in the game that the Nebulon-B would add? We understand, of course, that the game's miniatures are already proxies for extremely diverse unit groups. A "tie fighter" likely symbolizes not just tie fighters but also interceptors, gunboats, local strike craft, and, depending on the period of the war, perhaps some TIE-advanced, TIE-defenders, TIE-phantoms, missile boats, and what have you. A unit of Rebel troopers may represent your standard alliance marines, or rebel commandos, or enraged wookies, or a Mandalorian strike team, or anything in between. It is, in my opinion, not a bad thing at all that such minis are missing from the game- their implied presence is understood, and their actual presence would clutter up a game which needs no further clutter.

So, to that point, I understand the Nebulon-B as being implied to belong either to a corvette unit (as a major element of a light rebel fleet) or to a cruiser unit (as a supplementary element of a heavy rebel fleet). What would the benefit be of adding a new Rebel unit in-between? And would the Imperials get their own counter, like a Victory SD? Does it need such a unit any more than the Rebels do?
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Saro Gumusyan

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This is very reminiscent of discussions on Axis & Allies boards for specialty units like heavy armor, escort carriers, self propelled artillery, etc. This game like A&A beautifully abstracts units to make combat simple, at least in terms of unit values.

The Nebulon-B frigate is admittedly cool looking and has enough screen time in Empire and Jedi to have a place in SW lore, but as mentioned it's presence can already be accounted for in the Corellian Corvette as an eacort ship.
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Darth Coupon wrote:
This is very reminiscent of discussions on Axis & Allies boards for specialty units like heavy armor, escort carriers, self propelled artillery, etc. This game like A&A beautifully abstracts units to make combat simple, at least in terms of unit values.

The Nebulon-B frigate is admittedly cool looking and has enough screen time in Empire and Jedi to have a place in SW lore, but as mentioned it's presence can already be accounted for in the Corellian Corvette as an escort ship.


It had presence in the movies, but was not actually helpful in a battle (even in the Battle of Endor), i know it has plenty of back-story in the EU, but I don't see why it is necessary in this game at all.

The only missing units I feel have a place in this game are the Millennium Falcon (which has its own thread and enough comments from other people saying that a single ship doesn't belong in this game - although it did in both attacks against the DS), the second unit I feel could be added and add an interesting wrinkle (but who knows if it can be balanced) are Tie-Bombers.

Tie Bombers can be space units that contribute ground dice (no space dice). But as I said I don't know how to balance it, or when would the battle end if the rebels can't shoot at the bombers and the Bombers don't have anything to attack them. Also I don't think they are necessary even tho they are 'missing'.

Sorry for adding non Nebulon talk to your thread.
 
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David Umstattd
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Darth Coupon wrote:
This is very reminiscent of discussions on Axis & Allies boards for specialty units like heavy armor, escort carriers, self propelled artillery, etc. This game like A&A beautifully abstracts units to make combat simple, at least in terms of unit values.

The Nebulon-B frigate is admittedly cool looking and has enough screen time in Empire and Jedi to have a place in SW lore, but as mentioned it's presence can already be accounted for in the Corellian Corvette as an eacort ship.


Which is why I'm not asking for Dreadnauts, Victory Class SD's, E Wings, or any other obscure things. I'm simply opening the discussion on if there is room for more units for the rebels from a strategic perspective. So add something to the discussion or leave. If you think the current slate of units covers all necessary strategic compositions then please make that argument.
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David Umstattd
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jooice wrote:
Darth Coupon wrote:
This is very reminiscent of discussions on Axis & Allies boards for specialty units like heavy armor, escort carriers, self propelled artillery, etc. This game like A&A beautifully abstracts units to make combat simple, at least in terms of unit values.

The Nebulon-B frigate is admittedly cool looking and has enough screen time in Empire and Jedi to have a place in SW lore, but as mentioned it's presence can already be accounted for in the Corellian Corvette as an escort ship.


It had presence in the movies, but was not actually helpful in a battle (even in the Battle of Endor), i know it has plenty of back-story in the EU, but I don't see why it is necessary in this game at all.



The hell? The Redemption was just just as important to the rebel fleet as any of their other ships. Not only was it an armed capital ship but it was present in battles and operations to ensure the survival of pilots and agents. It had a freaking 5% mortality rate. So if a pilot could get to the Redemption they were basically going to survive.

Though the idea of a support ship is interesting. Less attack dice but perhaps the ability to regain 1 fighter and 1 rebel trooper at the end of a combat. That could be interesting and give the rebels more options in their hit and run tactics.

Though I feel adding this would be a pure buff to the rebels and you'd want to give the empire something in addition.

But now we're getting into larger scope. This thread is purely about the NBF and if it could possibly be added to the game. Seems the consensus amongst everyone is that it couldn't possibly be added. I'm not quite convinced yet.
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semi-off topic for a second, but...

It always kind of bothered me that the medical frigate was brought along on the large scale assault of the Death Star in ROTJ... It really actually kind of bugged me that the fleet came along at all. The Rebel fighters all have hyperdrives, so, there isn't any need for them to hitch a ride. Why was the Rebel fleet (the entirety of the Rebel forces, as we were led to believe) brought along in a fight that involved fighters attacking the interior of the Death Star? Yes, they engaged the Imp fleet when it was learned that the Death Star's deflector shield was "quite operational" when they arrived, but it wasn't supposed to be. In fact, Admiral Ackbar's response when the shield status was confirmed was to turn tail and retreat but Lando convinced him to stay and fight and give Han more time to bring down the shield since they would not get another chance to destroy the Death Star. So; Ackbar's plan involved the shield being down and the fighters zooming in and taking out the DS reactor. When that wasn't looking possible, there was no "well, we have the fleet here to fight with" contingency. So, why was the Rebel fleet there?!?! And then, on top of that, why was the medical frigate there?! Keep it in jump distance but out of the fight!

Anyway, sorry... that just always sat weird with me.
 
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Doug DeMoss
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The Rebel fleet was there because the shield was believed to be down and the Death Star was believed to be non-operational. It was supposed to be little more than an exercise in applying a ton of firepower to an inert hunk of metal before the Imperial Starfleet could respond.
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Also, without the DS's laser online (as the Rebels believed) the capital ships would've provided some effective support for the fighters against the TIEs and other DS defenses.
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Roy Stephens
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Subtrendy Gaming wrote:
Also, without the DS's laser online (as the Rebels believed) the capital ships would've provided some effective support for the fighters against the TIEs and other DS defenses.


But the ENTIRE Rebel fleet, including the medical frigate?
 
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hockeyjedi wrote:
Subtrendy Gaming wrote:
Also, without the DS's laser online (as the Rebels believed) the capital ships would've provided some effective support for the fighters against the TIEs and other DS defenses.


But the ENTIRE Rebel fleet, including the medical frigate?


I mean, you saw how it almost worked out for them- clearly it wasn't a stroke of brilliance.

I imagine they knew this was their one big chance to take it down, though, so they threw everything they had at it.
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Additionally, they knew the Emperor was on board the DSII. Which would mean his personal ISD would be there along with whatever other ships were assigned to escort duty. So why not have extra reinforcements just in case?

The real shock for the Rebel fleet upon reaching Endor should have been that there were no Imperial ships orbiting. That should have been a clue.
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An idea about the OP's original question:

1) I would make a mission card and/or an action card to make a Nebulon-B available. When it is successfully done, place the Nebulon-B on the 3rd place of the build queue. Alternatively a corvette with a Nebulon-B token could represent it in the game.

2) The Nebulon-B has the same values as a corvette except its health is 3 and has the special ability: "at the start of each space battle step, draw one space tactic card".

With the existing combat system there is not much room to fit in other ship designs, it is too simple for that. However I think the above is a good compromise while being easy and thematically fitting: Nebulon-Bs had excellent communication arrays and were used to co-ordinate other smaller fleet elements in anti-piracy tasks, which is represented by the bonus tactic card.
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Actually there are valid and viable design spaces. It could be a ship like this:

2black/1red dice
3 health red/black - so it can be hit by both!
No transport capability.

The ship is appealing for its greater health pool and firepower, but being susceptible to both colored dice is a big disadvantage.

TIE Bombers could have:
2red
2 black health
At the end of the space combat step, the Imperial player may add surviving TIE bomber to their ground forces. At the end of the ground battle step, move all surviving TIE bombers back to the space battle.

Both ships would be blue circle ships.
 
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Thrombozyt wrote:
Actually there are valid and viable design spaces. It could be a ship like this:

2black/1red dice
3 health red/black - so it can be hit by both!
No transport capability.

The ship is appealing for its greater health pool and firepower, but being susceptible to both colored dice is a big disadvantage.

TIE Bombers could have:
2red
2 black health
At the end of the space combat step, the Imperial player may add surviving TIE bomber to their ground forces. At the end of the ground battle step, move all surviving TIE bombers back to the space battle.

Both ships would be blue circle ships.


Hmm, very interesting idea with TIE Bombers. Overall I really like it, but having them be so versatile almost seems overpowered. Basically, what we're saying is they have potential to attack in both the ground and space battles each round. That's a pretty big advantage, especially since it's optional to go to ground.

Instead, I might suggest nerfing them a little by giving them one red die attack and one black health in space- just like a Y-Wing. Then, I'd suggest that if they choose to go to ground, their health temporarily switches to red and they gain an additional die- this way, they're much more vulnerable in space, as makes sense.

I'd also suggest Y-Wings be granted these abilities as well.
 
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