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Subject: Steal my Loaded Dice Idea! rss

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Jack McNamee
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Hi everyone,

I have an idea I doubt I'd ever be able to implement. Maybe someone on this forum would find it interesting.

It's a traitor game. The majority of the players are attempting to pass tests or defeat enemies by rolling dice. One player, however, is a traitor. At the beginning of the game, in addition to their normal dice, they are given one loaded dice which always rolls badly.

The idea is that they need to use their loaded dice for crucial skill checks, but not overuse it so much that it becomes obvious that they're a traitor. Also, anyone who rolls badly will come under suspicion, so there'll be plenty of paranoia.

The game would need 2 normal colored dice for each player, and 1 loaded colored dice for each player. At the end of the game, you could test which dice is loaded using this test: http://makezine.com/2015/06/16/check-balance-gaming-dice/

There's obviously a lot of issues you'd have to work through to make this idea tenable, but maybe it'll inspire someone.
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Bojan Prakljacic
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But.. Dice is pure RNG. You can roll badly with normal dice few times in a row. I know, I've played lots of Eldritch Horror, and when the dice is hating you, you just fail from turn to turn, lol.
Also, beats the purpose if you know which die is loaded (different color), and even if it's not in different color, I wonder how would you find out the die is loaded during the game setup? laugh
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Russ Williams
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Seems a potentially good amusing method.


8Oj4N wrote:
But.. Dice is pure RNG. You can roll badly with normal dice few times in a row.

But... that's obviously the point! There is intentional uncertainty. The traitor might roll well, the good guys might roll badly, but on average the traitor will roll worse.

If the traitor always rolled badly and the good guys always rolled well, then it would not be very interesting challenge to identify the traitor.

Quote:
Also, beats the purpose if you know which die is loaded (different color),

Of course it would not be a different color from the fair dice.

Quote:
and even if it's not in different color, I wonder how would you find out the die is loaded during the game setup? laugh

I wonder how you missed the OP's link to a way to test dice...
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Pelle Nilsson
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I like this as a variation on the traitor mechanics from other games and dice are always fun.

The only loaded dice I have seen have been quite obviously heavier than other dice. I guess you can make them only slightly heavier. That would also be required to make sure they do not end up on their worst side every time. What was worse was that those dice had obvious markings (on the side where a weight had been inserted to make it heavier) but I guess there are far better ways of making less obviously loaded dice that can be used.

One trick actually might be to just use dice with different distributions of icons/numbers seen on the sides. At a quick glance it will not be obvious if your die is missing some outcome and/or has more of one.

OR instead of dice you could have a handful of coins. If the traitor mixes in a few coins that has only bad sides no one will be able to tell. You could even control how much of a traitor you dare to be by mixing in more or fewer bad coins for a certain action.
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Bojan Prakljacic
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No, I haven't missed the OPs explanation about how to detect the loaded die. But, the thing is, you can't detect visually which die is the loaded one.

I kinda misread this though: ''The game would need 2 normal colored dice for each player, and 1 loaded colored dice for each player'',so I thought the loaded die would be in different color.

The thing is, going by this setting no one will know who the traitor was until the game ends (even the traitor will not know). And. maybe I'm missing something, but in traitor games, it is usually important for the traitor to know that he is THE TRAITOR. Because, traitors always have some secret agendas they need to fulfill, thus playing the game to lose or to place obstacles for other players so they fail.

If you don't know that you are the traitor you will do the same as other players, and one loaded die in the group of lots of other normal dices will not do much by itself. It will even out eventually.

So, do we have more traitors then? What is the purpose?

This idea is only applicable if by some game mechanic you can 'spread' your loaded dices to other players, or you have a secret agenda to always fail. Well, in both cases player that is the assigned traitor needs to know he is the one and take that loaded die into his dice pool.
Only way to do that in the midst of other same dices it to apply those tests. But, once you apply test you have to hide somehow who took that die!

Fiddly and obscure.


I do have an idea how this could still work. If the loaded die has a spot of florescent color on the one pip ( a clue on it so you can close your fist and see in the dark which one is loaded). This way the traitor will know he is the one immediately, and then he will be able to do his secret agenda stuff.

Still, I think the bad rolls would even out if the majority of dices are 'good' ones. So, some mechanic to spread loaded dices would have to be applied.


There is a game that uses dices with traitor mechanics, Moon Base Alpha or something can't remember now, but players use cardboard curtains to roll dices behind it and they always use rolls with lover values with a excuse they had a bad luck. ;] And since you are never sure, it is also hard to find a traitor. But, since they use multiple dices it is easier for them to affect the game with bad rolls.
 
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Russ Williams
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8Oj4N wrote:
The thing is, going by this setting no one will know who the traitor was until the game ends (even the traitor will not know). And. maybe I'm missing something, but in traitor games, it is usually important for the traitor to know that he is THE TRAITOR. Because, traitors always have some secret agendas they need to fulfill, thus playing the game to lose or to place obstacles for other players so they fail.

The traitor can know who he is by any of the usual methods (e.g. give out cards to each player at the start of the game, and one card says "traitor".)

The players each receive their set of dice, which are in some kind of container/box with the loaded die stored in a separate compartment of the container. (These were set up before the game began, or as cleanup of the previous game.)

So each player knows which of their dice is loaded and can consciously choose whether to contribute their loaded die or a regular die to a challenge.
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Marco van Donderen
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Here's how I would use it.

Every player gets a screen, two regular and one loaded dice. The dice obviously need to be the same color, but the loaded dice have to be a lot heavier then the regular ones. Give every player a random role using cards. When it's time to roll the dice every player needs to select two of the three dice. You are not allowed to touch the dice of other players so no one knows who the traitor is that uses a loaded die instead of a regular one.

This way you still get the paranoia when someone just rolls badly, but at the end of the game you don't have to use some weird method to find the loaded die but you can just reveal the role selection cards.
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Brendan Riley
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Bigbangs007 wrote:
Here's how I would use it.

Every player gets a screen, two regular and one loaded dice. The dice obviously need to be the same color, but the loaded dice have to be a lot heavier then the regular ones. Give every player a random role using cards. When it's time to roll the dice every player needs to select two of the three dice. You are not allowed to touch the dice of other players so no one knows who the traitor is that uses a loaded die instead of a regular one.

This way you still get the paranoia when someone just rolls badly, but at the end of the game you don't have to use some weird method to find the loaded die but you can just reveal the role selection cards.


Once you have a screen you don't need the loaded dice. Just make the dice mean (say they have four "bad" sides and then one or two "good" sides) and have people roll behind the screen. Then they can select which die they want to play.

This is, of course, the solution used in Dark Moon.
 
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Russ Williams
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wombat929 wrote:
Once you have a screen you don't need the loaded dice. Just make the dice mean (say they have four "bad" sides and then one or two "good" sides) and have people roll behind the screen. Then they can select which die they want to play.

I'm not sure I understand this method. You mean one "bad" die has e.g. faces with 1 1 1 1 6 6 instead of 1 2 3 4 5 6? Do players not actually show their rolled die, but simply say "I rolled a 3 behind my screen" or whatever? (That would seem much more prone to uncatchable cheating unfortunately.)
 
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Brendan Riley
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russ wrote:
wombat929 wrote:
Once you have a screen you don't need the loaded dice. Just make the dice mean (say they have four "bad" sides and then one or two "good" sides) and have people roll behind the screen. Then they can select which die they want to play.

I'm not sure I understand this method. You mean one "bad" die has e.g. faces with 1 1 1 1 6 6 instead of 1 2 3 4 5 6? Do players not actually show their rolled die, but simply say "I rolled a 3 behind my screen" or whatever? (That would seem much more prone to uncatchable cheating unfortunately.)


Yes, you roll your dice behind a screen and choose which ones to set out and show to the group.

It does allow for uncatchable cheating, but the benefits to the fun of the game are far higher. For example:

In your game, I put roll a 1 three times in a row. People can see that and ask themselves "is that bad luck, or is he the spy?"

In Dark moon, I put out -1 results three times in a row, saying "Sorry everyone, that's all I have!" Now there's a possibility that I just rolled badly, but everyone knows I could also be picking to put out bad dice and hurt the group.

For me, game design is about giving players interesting choices. Rolling the dice behind the screen vastly multiplies the choices the players have, and the suspicion created therein. Plus, you don't need to engineer a weighted die that fails significantly enough to push the game but not so significantly that you can tell by picking it up.

(Another problem -- your game limits people to only rolling one die at a time, or else they could lose track of which die is the bad one, correct? And they'd still need a screen or something to keep the dice behind to keep them from getting mixed up.)
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Russ Williams
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wombat929 wrote:
russ wrote:
wombat929 wrote:
Once you have a screen you don't need the loaded dice. Just make the dice mean (say they have four "bad" sides and then one or two "good" sides) and have people roll behind the screen. Then they can select which die they want to play.

I'm not sure I understand this method. You mean one "bad" die has e.g. faces with 1 1 1 1 6 6 instead of 1 2 3 4 5 6? Do players not actually show their rolled die, but simply say "I rolled a 3 behind my screen" or whatever? (That would seem much more prone to uncatchable cheating unfortunately.)


Yes, you roll your dice behind a screen and choose which ones to set out and show to the group.

Then I'm confused: if you show your die to the group, then they can see whether it is the good 123456 die or the bad 111166 die!

Quote:
It does allow for uncatchable cheating, but the benefits to the fun of the game are far higher. For example:

In your game, I put roll a 1 three times in a row. People can see that and ask themselves "is that bad luck, or is he the spy?"

In Dark moon, I put out -1 results three times in a row, saying "Sorry everyone, that's all I have!" Now there's a possibility that I just rolled badly, but everyone knows I could also be picking to put out bad dice and hurt the group.

I'm not grokking the practical difference. In both versions, the traitor can choose whether to roll their good die or their bad die, and in both versions the other players don't see which dice the opponents picked to roll. Am I missing something?

Quote:
For me, game design is about giving players interesting choices. Rolling the dice behind the screen vastly multiplies the choices the players have, and the suspicion created therein. Plus, you don't need to engineer a weighted die that fails significantly enough to push the game but not so significantly that you can tell by picking it up.

I agree that the idea of the heavier loaded die is a practical engineering problem (and possibly too difficult for some players to feel the difference.)

Quite possibly the loaded dice idea is cooler in theory than in practice. But in theory I'm not seeing how a bad loaded die is different from your proposal of a bad 111166 die. (Especially since people can tell just by looking that a 111166 die is bad.)
 
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Bojan Prakljacic
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I don't think this idea is a novelty. Let's face is, it is used in Las Vegas for decades. ;D
 
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Brendan Riley
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russ wrote:
I'm not grokking the practical difference. In both versions, the traitor can choose whether to roll their good die or their bad die, and in both versions the other players don't see which dice the opponents picked to roll. Am I missing something?


All the dice are bad. The unknown is whether you rolled something good on one of the ones you didn't show. You roll several dice at the beginning of the round.
 
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Bryan
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If the idea is for everyone to not know who the traitor is, then you could use the popping dice mechanisms like trouble has. The weighted dice would be in a dome, and the underside of the dome can be marked to identify it, without anyone being able to tell which ones are weighted, and which ones aren't. Each player gets a dome, whoever gets the traitor dome is the traitor. If you want multiple domes per player so the traitor can switch it up, this is also doable. You could also make it strategic on how they use the loaded dome by doing something like having 3 domes, and eliminating the one you use each round for 3 rounds until you reset. This is the only way I can see having the weighted dice be viable without anyone knowing which it is.
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Russ Williams
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wombat929 wrote:
All the dice are bad. The unknown is whether you rolled something good on one of the ones you didn't show. You roll several dice at the beginning of the round.

I.e. everyone rolls all their dice, and then secretly chooses which subset of their results they will show to the others, and most people will show their good numbers (to help the team) but the traitor may show worse numbers to hurt the team, while pretending "Sorry guys, that's the best I rolled"?

OK, but then I don't see why you need special dice at all. That exact same traitor mechanism would work fine with ordinary 123456 dice, wouldn't it?

So I guess I am still missing something. :/
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Matt D
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I think the idea behind this thought. I just wonder how much dice rolling you can do in the game such that the traitor with the weighted die can have enough of an impact only using it on certain die rolls to be either detectable or effective.

I mean, how many times would it have to be used before one could see a trend? 5 rolls? 10? And if they are only picking "important" ones to do it, then that means there have to be more in the game otherwise. 20 or so?

I think this could be good paired with other mechanics. I don't think you could do enough dice rolling to let trends develop. But if it were part of a greater sense of mechanics...it might be additional clues.
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Matt D
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russ wrote:
wombat929 wrote:
All the dice are bad. The unknown is whether you rolled something good on one of the ones you didn't show. You roll several dice at the beginning of the round.

I.e. everyone rolls all their dice, and then secretly chooses which subset of their results they will show to the others, and most people will show their good numbers (to help the team) but the traitor may show worse numbers to hurt the team, while pretending "Sorry guys, that's the best I rolled"?

OK, but then I don't see why you need special dice at all. That exact same traitor mechanism would work fine with ordinary 123456 dice, wouldn't it?

So I guess I am still missing something. :/


You're not. People are spinning off tangents of how to do traitor based die rolling, which is ok, but they have nothing to do with the OP's original idea and therefore can be done without gimmicky dice.

So just pay no attention to the tangents, and all will continue to make sense.
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Dimitri Sirenko
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Fandango wrote:
Hi everyone,

I have an idea I doubt I'd ever be able to implement. Maybe someone on this forum would find it interesting.

It's a traitor game. The majority of the players are attempting to pass tests or defeat enemies by rolling dice. One player, however, is a traitor. At the beginning of the game, in addition to their normal dice, they are given one loaded dice which always rolls badly.

The idea is that they need to use their loaded dice for crucial skill checks, but not overuse it so much that it becomes obvious that they're a traitor. Also, anyone who rolls badly will come under suspicion, so there'll be plenty of paranoia.

The game would need 2 normal colored dice for each player, and 1 loaded colored dice for each player. At the end of the game, you could test which dice is loaded using this test: http://makezine.com/2015/06/16/check-balance-gaming-dice/

There's obviously a lot of issues you'd have to work through to make this idea tenable, but maybe it'll inspire someone.



i would propose using cards instead of dice as an option. You will of course have to figure out how to secretly give a loaded hand to the traitor without anyone knowing, but i think it is possible.

Every player gets 6 cards (or any amount that would make sense for the design of the game)
Every normal player has cards numbered 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6.
The traitor will have a different set which will be something like 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3. Then the players keep their 6 cards face down and reveal random card each time
 
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patrick mullen
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I like the idea. It's more of a weak traitor than a strong one, as presumably even the loaded die can come up with a 6 sometimes. In that sense, you may not even need to have the choice of using the normal die or the loaded one. You can move the traitors choices to something else than just whether or not to put in bad stuff and try not to get caught. Maybe players can choose which skill checks to attempt - the player who seems heroic and is trying many of the skill checks may be trying to win, or trying to mess them up with his loaded die.

I see it causing a lot more suspicion of the wrong people and making it much harder to identify the traitor. If that is what a game is going for, then it's a neat - if gimmicky - way to do it.

You could weight ALL the dice - but have the traitor one weighted for bad rolls and the non-traitor weighted for good ones, making them feel the same.

Using a container for the dice so that you can identify which one is loaded easily at the end of the game or for setup might be good too as was mentioned. Maybe instead of handing out traitor cards, you just hand out dice cups or containers that have the dice in them. You look at the bottom of it to see which one you are. (Take 2 containers if you keep the choice element).
 
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